requisite knowledge to supervise the maintenance and construction of roads in expenditure. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Mr. Lowther, the Committee have already decided that the county council shall have this power, and I submit that the honourable Member's argument is not relevant. *MR. J. SAMUEL: I understand, Mr. Lowther, that the Amendment which has been moved proposes the omission of sub-section 2, under which the county council will have power to sanction or not to sanction the expenditure of the rural council-that is to say, they will not be permitted to sanction the expenditure if it exceed by one-fourth that of the average expenditure of the past three years. I am afraid that the right honourable Gentleman will find out in time that the only proper way ensure economy by our spending authorities is to make every local authority feel responsibility for the expenditure. Unless you do that, I am certain that in Ireland, as well as in England, extravagance will follow; and it is because that is the result of my own experience for a long time in this country that I have ventured to make these few remarks. to *MR. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty): Mr. Lowther, I will occupy only a very few moments in speaking upon this point. The honourable Gentleman who has just sat down has referred to the expenditure of district councils and county councils upon roads in England. I know something of the expenditure upon the the Highlands of Scotland, in districts similar to those in the west of Ireland. There the parish councils and the county councils are most careful in their expenditure, and not a sixpence is expended more than is necessary. The parish councils are even parsimonious in their expenditure, and if ever the matter is referred to the county councils the greatest economy is exercised. I would appeal, therefore, to the Chief Secretary for Ireland not to hesitate to give the rural councils under this Bill full powers. They must be the best judges of what expenditure is really necessary; and, as has been said, if the Local Government Board have to be appealed to, there may be a delay of 12 months before the matter is decided. I am convinced from what I have seen in the Highlands of Scotland in regard to expenditure in connection with the repair and construction of roads by rural councils and by the county councils, that the power should be left in the hands of similar bodies in Ireland. The right honourable Gentleman proposes a muz zling process by setting the Local Government Board over these local authorities. The whole thing is absurd, and I trust the mover of this Amendment will carry it to a Division. If he does so, I shall certainly go into the Lobby with him. Question put "That the words a county council shall not without the consent of the Local Government Board approve of any expenditure in,' stand part of the clause." The Committee divided:-Ayes 154, Noes 113.-(Division List No. 96.) Allhusen, A. H. E. Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Mr. Samuel. AYES. Bigwood, James Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Giles, Charles Tyrrell Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Helder, Augustus Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord A. (Down) Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh Howard, Joseph Howell, William Tudor Hozier, Hon. J. Henry Cecil Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Johnston, Wm. (Belfast) Kemp, George Kenyon-Slaney, Kimber, Henry Col. William King, Sir Henry Seymour Knowles, Lees Lafone, Alfred Lawrence, Sir Ed. (Cornwall) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverp'') Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Mersey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Rentoul, James Alexander Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Thorburn, Walter Thornton, Percy M. Tritton, Charles Ernest Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe) Waring, Col. Thomas Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.) Wentworth, Bruce C. VernonWhiteley, George (Stockport) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset) Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Wilson, John (Falkirk) Wodehouse, Edm. R. (Bath) Wyndham, George Young, Capt. O. (Berks, E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYESSir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther. NOES. Donelan, Captain A. Goddard, Daniel Ford Hammond, John (Carlow) Kinloch, Sir J. G. myth Knox, E. F. Vesey Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberl'nd} MacNeill, John Gordon Swift McCartan, Michael McDermott, Patrick M'Ghee, Richard M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.) M'Hugh, P. A. (Leitrim) Maddison, Fred. Molloy, Bernard Charles Norton, Capt. Cecil William Parnell, John Howard Pickersgill, Edward Hare Smith, Samuel (Flint) Souttar, Robinson Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) MR. M. HEALY: Mr. Lowther, I understand that this sub-section is proposed on the ground that the Government fear extravagant expenditure as a consequence of the smaller ratepayers setting on foot what will practically be relief works. I believe that idea to be entirely illusory. The small occupiers, we are told, in many counties constitute a very large bulk of the ratepayers of the district, but to suppose that they are going to tax themselves to provide a road whether it is required or not is a mere absurdity. However, Sir, if there is a danger of that kind, I submit to the Government that such a danger can only arise in the case of a new road. The old roads of the county must always be kept in repair, and contracts must always be given out for that purpose. Those contracts are, as a rule, for five years, and sometimes they are for seven years, and therefore there can be no system of what I may call log-rolling amongst the smaller occupiers in any case, and certainly not in the case of main roads. It is inconceivable that contracts for such a purpose could be given out on that principle. I have observed, Mr. Lowther, that under a later part of this Bill the Government propose to abolish the existing system whereby the lowest contract must be accepted by a district council. I am appalled to see that that is to be done, and when the proper time comes. I shall certainly move an Amendment saving the existing system in that respect. Into the reasons for that I will not, of course, go at present. I quite admit that the present system of contracts is susceptible of abuses, and I will put an Amendment on the Paper with the object of putting an end to every such abuse. But, certainly, the Government are misguided in making the proposition that the lowest tender should not be accepted. It is at the present time the only safeguard against jobbery. I think myself that it is a most valuable safeguard, and I, for my part, will make a strenuous effort to secure that that Now, safeguard shall be preserved when these new bodies are created. But I note for the present that it is the proposal of the Government that in future the local authority shall not be bound to accept In other words, the lowest tender. having a choice of tenders, both supported by an offer of due security for carrying out the contract, the Government propose that it should be in the power of the county council to say that the higher tender shall be accepted and the lower tender not accepted. that being so, it does seem extraordinary that the same Government should impose this limitation on the expenditure of the county councils. They say, on the one hand, that the local authority may take the higher tender when they might accept a lower tender; and in the same breath they say that if the expenditure exceeds certain limits, it shall not be in the power of the local body to carry out the works. Now, I do submit that whatever may be said as to new roads, in the case of the repair of new roads there can be no danger. I am arguing the question on the supposition that the Government is open to reason on this question, and I say it is absolutely impossible that the proposal as to maintenance charges shall be included in the sub-section under consideration. You have so many miles of roads in each county to keep in repair, and the county council is bound under a clause in this Bill to keep them in repair. They would be bound to do so under the existing law, and I hope they will be bound, if this Bill passes into law, to accept the lowest tender to keep those roads in repair. You have a perfect system of checks to secure that--in regard to the maintenance of roads, at any rate there shall be no excessive expenditure MR. TULLY said the proposal to limit the expenditure of the county councils on roads to one-fourth the amount certified to have been the average expenditure thereon during the previous three years was a very mischievous and monstrous. one, as also was the system of accepting the lowest tender for work. The latter system had led to fraud and litigation, and the roads had in the end, though badly made, cost more than was paid in England for good roads. He desired to express his satisfaction that the Government were ready to depart from the vicious system of compelling county councils to accept the lowest tender in all cases. MR. M. HEALY said that he should on the part of local bodies; what case, | liberty of the district councils, the therefore, can there be for including Amendment would restrict it further. maintenance charges under the limitation of expenditure which you propose in this Bill? We all know that the rate at which labour is paid in Ireland has enormously increased during the last 50 years. It has not increased there, perhaps, so much as it has increased elsewhere; but everybody knows that the rate at which labour is now paid is considerably higher-and we are all very glad of it-than it was 50, or even 20 years ago. Emigration and other causes have brought about a steady increase in the cost of labour, and it is to be presumed, therefore, that there will be a steady increase in the mere cost of keeping the roads in repair. But, why should that increase of cost be taken into consideration as against the county and district councils, whether you are estimating that their charges for new works are excessive or extravagant or not? I insist that, apart from the question of expenditure upon new roads, when it comes to a question of maintenance charges, it is most unfair and most unjust to debit as against the county councils in regard to their expenditure the amount which they are compelled by law, and will be compelled under this Bill, to spend on the maintenance of new roads. I trust that the Government will, at any rate, take into consideration the argument I have addressed to them. I submit that there is a valid and reasonable distinction between the cost of maintenance of old roads and the cost of making new roads; and however it may be urged that extravagance may take place with regard to new roads, it is impossible to argue that in connection with the maintenance of old roads any system of jobbery can exist. raise the question of accepting the lowest Gentleman the Chief Secretary had stated would be that in the case of a district He the right honourable Gentleman against the Amendment was the strongest conceivable argument against the Chief Secretary's proposal. MR. GERALD BALFOUR said that if the expenditure on roads was likely to be more than was covered by the margin provided, the Local Government Board would consider the matter and act fairly. MR. M. HEALY said he was not dis MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Mr. Lowther, I cannot ask the Government to accept this Amendment. If the proposed words were inserted the effect would be that, in the case of a district council which had not happened to construct any roads in the three years pre-cussing how far the Local Government vious to the standard year, the Local Government Board would have to be appealed to in regard to each separate new road. So far from increasing the Board would exercise their power wisely. If they granted that the Local Government Board would do everything that was reasonable no argument against the clause would remain. The Government,. Amendment proposed in this clause, had admitted that there should be a certain margin within which the county councils should act without the authority of the Local Government Board. His argument was that that margin should be extended, and it was no answer to his argument to tell him that the Local Government Board would act reasonably in every case. He hoped the Government would see that there was a distinction to be drawn between maintenance and construction. In connection with the former, there could be no fear of the abuses contemplated by the Government in connection with construction. "Page 11, line 18, after 'Board,' insert, as a new sub-section "Every urban district council shall, for the purpose of them from any business transferred to a Grand Jury, either by this or any other Act, or by any order made under the Public Health Act, 1878, have the same powers as respects land or easements of rights over land as a county Act with respect to the acquisition, purchase, council, and the provisions of Part I. of this taking on lease, or exchange of land, easements, or rights, or the taking or use of any land, easements, or rights by a county council, shall apply accordingly with the necessary modifications."-(Mr. Gerald Balfour.) MR. GERALD BALFOUR said that it MR. M. HEALY asked the right would be quite possible for the local honourable Gentleman whether he had authority to require maintenance work considered the desirability of modifying far beyond the real necessities of the case. the clause in the Public Health Act, could only be commenced in the month under which it was provided that work of November. *LORD E. FITZMAURICE suggested that there should be a limit placed on maintenance, and none on construction. He thought that instead of patching up the clause it would be better to strike it stood to say that he would consider the out altogether. and bring it up in a new form on Report. MR. GERALD BALFOUR was under matter. "(6) Nothing in this section or in the provisions of this Act with respect to main roads shall affect the provisions of any local Act or any Provisional Order confirmed by an Act respecting the maintenance of any road in an urban county district, or respecting the liability of the district to contribute towards the expenses of the maintenance of roads partly leviable off the county at large.'"Mr. Gerald Balfour.) MR. M. HEALY moved to omit the words "roads partly leviable off the county at large" at the end of Subsection 6 in order to insert "any road outside the urban district." |