on

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The honourable Gentleman has altogether misconceived my position. He seems to imagine that the cases I quoted were selected by me in order to give the Committee the general impression that there is nothing but fraud, misrepresentation, and exaggeration in connection with the distress in the west of Ireland. I did not quote these cases to prove any such thing. I do not deny, I never have denied from the first, that distress does

exist in certain localities. What I have

maintained is that the measures taken by the Government were sufficient to cope with that distress, and to meet it adequately. In order to convince the Committee that that was the case I invited everybody residing in the district, and acquainted with what was actually going on, if they believed that adequate steps were not being taken to meet the distress, to send in to the Local Government Board the names of any persons who were alleged to be destitute and in need of

tifiable attack upon one of our colleagues | been answered, and under these circumfor his absence when his wife was dying. stances I shall press the matter to a The honourable and gallant Member Division. made a savage attack upon the people of Kerry, among whom he said he had resided for 28 years. He declared that the Kerry Union had been getting year by year deeper into debt in consequence, not of distress, but of bad administration; in fact, the whole speech of the honourable and gallant Member was one continued sneer. He cast ridicule on the whole story of distress in the south-west of Ireland, and he gave us the impression that he believed the whole story of distress to be either a "picturesque exaggeration" or a pure invention. Small wonder is it that a speech of that description provoked expressions of disapproval from honourable Members these benches who know the painful facts about this widespread distress. Now, Sir, I rose simply for the purpose of saying that after listening to the speech of the Chief Secretary I feel bound to carry this Motion to a Division. That speech was entirely unsatisfactory. From beginning to end it proceeded on the old lines of attempting to minimise the distress; and all the cases the right honourable Gentleman selected from the Reports were cases which went to show that the country was given over to corruption, fraud, and imposture, and that that was really the explanation to a large extent of the distress. I have never attempted to deny no sensible man having had experience of distress in Ireland or in any other country would deny that where you have distress spread over a very large area you will assuredly have some measure of exaggeration in the description of the suffering involved. That, of course, is always so. But I say that the picture the right honourable Gentleman drew is altogether false. I believe that for every single fraudulent application such as the right honourable Gentleman referred to there will be a hundred others which are genuine applications. One cannot deal with a question of this kind by taking one or two isolated cases and showing that there has been exaggeration. I say that this deplorable condition of things has not been adequately dealt with-indeed, it seems as yet hardly even appreciated-by the Government. The figures we have placed before the Committee have not

relief. In the instances I cited I dealt

with every one of the cases in which a response had been made to that invitation, and I showed that in every case, upon inquiry, it was found that the destitution was an alleged destitution, and practically did not exist, or, at all events, did not exist to the degree that would demand assistance from funds provided by the public. One word more as to the statistics. As I understand the honourable Member for East Mayo, he went into the figures to show that there was a deficit in the potato crop amounting in money value to about four millions sterling. I pointed out that, even if that

were so, it was distributed over the whole of Ireland, among the large and small farmers alike, and that a large part of that loss would fall upon the well-to-do farmers. But, Sir, in order to trace the existence of destitution, you cannot absolutely rely on abstract arguments of that kind. To prove the existence of destitution you must investigate each case as it is presented, and that is what we have done. That is the way in which we have proceeded, and I maintain that that is far more satisfactory than merely taking

AYES.

Hammond, John (Carlow)
Harwood, George
Hayden, John Patrick
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-
Hazell, Walter

Healy, Maurice (Cork)
Healy, T. M. (Louth, N.)
Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H.
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.
Hogan, James Francis
Holburn, J. G.
Holden, Sir Angus

Horniman, Frederick John
Jameson, Major J. Eustace
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)
Jordan, Jeremiah
Kilbride, Denis
Knox, Edmund F. Vesey
Lough, Thomas
Macaleese, Daniel

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
McCartan, Michael

McDermott, Patrick
M'Ghee, Richard

M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)
Maddison, Fred.

Molloy, Bernard Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Murnaghan, George

Original Question again proposed.

MR. DALY (Monaghan, S.): There is a matter that I wish to bring before the Committee, and upon which I desire an explanation from the right honourable

barracks for training. At the time those cadets were sent from Dublin Castle there was not a single police cadet in training in Dublin.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr. JOHN Gentleman. In December last a number E. ELLIS): That question should be raised of cadets were sent to the Dublin police on the Constabulary Vote.

MR. DALY: The right honourable | provision of police huts, if I am not out of Gentleman has already answered some order. My impression is that on the Vote questions with regard to this matter. for the Chief Secretary I have discussed this matter before. In my own consti

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not tuency there is a police hut. relevant to this Vote.

man stated in this House that those

The

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : honourable Member is entirely out of He must connect his remarks order.

MR. DALY: Then there is another matter I should like to mention, and that is with regard to Divisional Com- with the functions of the Chief Secretary. missioners. There were up to last year MR. P. A. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.): At officials known as Divisional Commis- the close of his speech the Chief Secresioners, and the right honourable Gentle-tary said that it was not out of regard for officials could not be done without. But legal technicalities that he refused to the moment this House adjourned the make proper provision for the relief of right honourable Gentleman altered his distress in Ireland; he said it was under mind, and these officials were turned a sense of duty. I cannot understand into what are known as Crimes Com- myself how it can be the duty of the Chief Secretary to refuse to lend such a sum of money from the Treasury as to MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Does this adequately cope with the distress. The

missioners.

matter arise on this Vote?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think not, so far as I can follow the honourable Member.

MR. DALY: Then I suppose I shall have to wait till we reach the Constabulary Vote. But there is another matter that is of even greater importance, at least to county Monaghan, and that is with regard to the appointments of magistrates in that county.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The honourable Member is only entitled on this Vote to go into matters coming under the province of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

MR. DALY: But, Sir, the right honourable Gentleman himself has answered me questions on this subject.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The honourable Member is not entitled to pursue that line of argument. He must confine his remarks to some thing within the province of the Chief Secretary.

MR. DALY: Very well, Sir. Then there is one other matter, and I think I shall be in order this time. I wish to ask the right honourable Gentleman for some explanation on the matter of the

people of Ireland ask him for bread, and he gives them a stone. If he had any sympathy for the people he would not speak about his " duty," but he would have got proper funds from the Treasury and not have asked merely for the miserable pittance of £23,000. It is not surprising that Irish representatives find fault with the Chief Secretary for his niggardliness.