scheme. What do they mean? Here by this Petition the Great Western Railway Company declares that this line cannot be made remunerative, and now they ask the House of Commons to pass this scheme. How are they going to make it remunerative? The only way in which they can possibly make it remunerative is by setting up this monopoly, when they will become masters of the situation, and when they can recoup themselves by increased fares and increased rates upon freights in Ireland. I might go through this Petition clause by clause, and rest my case upon these clauses. Another one says "The lines of the proposed railways have been badly selected, and they are open to many objections from an engineering point of view, and otherwise, the crossings of the Rivers Suir and Barrow in the manner pro ford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway, and the Lismore and Fermoy Line. What for? Is it to be used as part of a new and competing route? Nothing of the kind, because I have been informed in the most authoritative way by the representatives of the Great Western Railway in England. that they do not intend to connect the new route to Waterford city by a bridge-that is. one end of the local lines-and they do not intend to join Fermoy to Cork-that is the other end of the local lines; so that these two local lines are to be left derelict. Why have they been purchased? In order to render it impossible in future for any route to be made which would be a competing route against the one which they are now establishing by the purchase of the Waterford and Limerick Line, and thus perpetuating the powers of the Great Southern and Wes-posed are most objectionable, and will obstruct tern of Ireland Railway. If this scheme is carried out the monopoly of the Great Southern and Western Railway in the south and south-west of Ireland would be established for all time, and it will It seems to me to be a preposterous thing never be possible in the future to con- that a company, having presented a petistruct a competing route. The right tion of this kind, should come round and honourable Gentleman says he does not actually support a Bill which they have know who the present promoters of this denounced in that way. I have hitherto Bill are that is a figure of speech. He spoken of the general interests of the does know perfectly well. They are the south of Ireland. There are particular Great Western Railway Company of Eng-interests also. There is the particular land. He knows that. The Great Wes-interest of the county of Wexford. tern Railway Company are promoting According to this scheme, a large sum this line; but when this Bill was introduced this actual Bill which the House of Commons is asked to pass to-dayat the commencement of the Session, it was promoted by the Fishguard and Rosslare Company, and then the Great Western Railway Company presented a petition against it, and this petition, on which I might rest the whole of my case against this Bill is of the most extraordinary character. They say "The proposed railways are quite uncalled for and unnecessary with respect to or for the purpose of either local traffic or through or Cross-Channel traffic. The construction of such railways cannot be justified, whether with regard to the demands for railway accommodation or the probability of a remunerative return upon the expenditure of capital involved in the proposed undertaking." Remember that those are the words of the men who are now promoting this and interfere with the navigation of those rivers, and with the traffic thereon, and the proposed railways cannot be constructed for the amount of the estimated cost thereof." of money will be spent in improving Rosslare Harbour, and in building a railway from Rosslare across the southern part of the county of Wexford to Waterford. Now, I should be very sorry to have anything to do with or to take any action myself which would be likely to prevent the possibility of a through route from Rosslare being created. My objections to taking that course would be justified by many reasons, one of which is of a somewhat personal character, and that is that the original idea of this through route to Rosslare was conceived and announced nearly 40 years ago by a grand-uncle of mine who at that time sat in this House as Member for Wexford. In addition to that I am bound to the county of Wexford by very close ties, and it would be impossible for me to take any action likely to prevent the creation of this through route. After all, the predominating factor must be this: what upon to express an opinion upon one por- sary for the promoters to come to Parliament next year again with new Bills dealing with other portions of their scheme. I submit, Sir, that this is a matter which should be dealt with as a whole. I submit that the whole scheme of the promoters should be put into Bills and submitted to Parliament at the same time, and considered at the same time by Parliamentary Committees. What can be the case if this Bill is sent to a Committee? The Committee will be called Mr. J. E. Redmond. are have given the sense. But this Bill does not contain all the proposals of the promoters. It only contains one small portion of the scheme of the promoters, and it might be quite possible that the hybrid Committee would report that there is nothing objectionable in this Bill, because the Bill will be narrowed down to the building of a line in Wexford. There is nothing in this Bill to create a monopoly in Ireland, but they ought to know that the purchase of the Waterford and Limerick Railway, of the Central Ireland Railway, and of the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway, by the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, is really an integral part of the whole scheme; but if they do know that it will be outside their purview. I say that all these things do point to the creation of a fied that the appointment of a hybrid monopoly, and I am not entirely satisCommittee is the best method of protecting our interests. I take the ground and unwise for this House to pass one very strongly that it is dangerous portion of a scheme until it has the other portions before it. I think it is unwise for the House to let go its grip upon any portion of a scheme until it has con- known to the Treasury, should not only be known to the Irish Members representing the districts, but should be known to the Irish public, and should be known to that public in time to enable them to express their opinions before the matter is decided in this House. At the present moment, if this Bill is passed, we are taking a leap in the dark, and do not know where it will land us. We do not know what the gentlemen promoting this Bill have in their minds, and I submit that under these circumstances it will be a far wiser thing to postpone the Second Reading until the whole of the proposals are laid before the House. The plans of the promoters are changed day by day. Nobody knows whether to-morrow they will be the same plans that they proposed to-day or not. Only last Monday, at a meeting of Irish Members, we were told that the Great Western Railway were in negotiation for the purchase of the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway, and on Friday, when I called to see the Secretary to the Treasury, he told me that up to that moment he had received no such proposal at all. How can the House act with confidence in dealing with people whose plans change from moment to moment, and whose state ments are of that character? You ought not to give any power of this kind on the faith of any promises or any assurances for the future. Their promises and their assurances should be in the Bill you are considering, and therefore I think it is unwise for this House to pass this Bill on the promise that next year another Bill will be introduced giving certain safeguards against monopoly. I find myself in a difficulty about this matter. I believe that the proper and consistent course will be to reject the Second Reading of this Bill altogether. The action which the Government has taken has placed me in a difficulty. I am convinced that the right honourable Gentleman is at one with us in our desire to prevent the creation of a monopoly in the south of Ireland. That being so, am I justified in refusing to accede to the course which he has suggested? I do not like the course. I think it is an unwise one; but if we accept it have, at any rate, this safeguard: that we have the public pledge of the Government that they, as a Government, will see that this scheme is not worked in the dark, but that it will be fairly worked. For these reasons I do not feel justified in proceeding with my Motion; but I do say that the people who are interested in this matter i Ireland will look to the right honorable Gentleman, who has now taken a serious responsibility upon his shoulders in this matter, to see that he, acting for the Government, will prove faithful to his pledge, and that at every step of the future procedure of this Bill the interests of the people will be safeguarded, and that every measure necessary will taken to prevent the creation of a monopoly which would be disastrous to a degree to the whole south-west of Ire land. MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork): My name, Sir, is the first one which appears on the back of this Bill, and to that extent I do not know whether to say fortunately or unfortunately-I am responsible for its appearance before the House to-day. And yet, Sir, I rise, as the honourable Member who spoke before me rose, in some doubt as to whether it is not my duty to the Irish public, and to the constituency which I represent, to move that this Bill be read a second time this day six months. That position will seem, perhaps, rather paradoxical to those who are unacquainted with the history of this Bill. But those who have followed the various involutions of its history will see, I think, that a Member situated as I am displays considerable forbearance in not taking the step which I have indicated, and in acceding to the course which the right honourable Gentleman the Secre tary for the Treasury has invited us to take. I put my name on the back of this Bill because I conceived that it was a Bill which would doubtless confer great benefits on the people of the south of I conceived that it would also confer Ireland, and more particularly because great benefits on the city of Cork. preamble of the Bill recites that it is should be established between the city desirable that railway communication of Cork and the port of Rosslare, and it was on the faith of the representation of the promoters that that was an essential part of the scheme that they received The support from me, and from other public | menced the scheme in such a splendid men in the south of Ireland. The Bill way, I regret to say that it had a very now comes before this House after a lamentable catastrophe. Having succhange of promoters with that essential ceeded in obtaining for the promoters of portion of the scheme dropped, so far as this line the support of, practically, the they are concerned, and the desire which united south of Ireland, having got the they originally professed to connect the Duke of Devonshire, at some considerable borough of Cork with Rosslare in the pecuniary risk, himself to give his support south of Ireland. no longer exists. Sir, to it, and having induced the British these gentlemen, the promoters, came Treasury to abandon an arrangement among us in the south of Ireland pledg- which they had entered into, these gentleing themselves to the establishment of men, behind our backs and without one this through route. On the faith of word of consultation with us, and withthose pledges they obtained from me, and out, from beginning to end, even saying from other public men in the south of "By your leave," or "With your leave," Ireland, valuable support. They obtained go over to the Great Western Railway the support of the honourable Member Company of England, and have a secret for Cambridge, they obtained the support treaty with them, and sell their whole of the honourable Member for South undertaking. My opinion is that gentleHants, and they obtained the support of men who act in this manner ought to be the honourable and gallant Member for taught a lesson. I think that promoters Yarmouth, whose public spirit in connec of an undertaking of this kind ought to ion with this Bill entitles him to the be taught that they shall not be allowed thanks of the localities interested in the to trifle with the public of these counscheme. Furthermore, they obtained, out-tries, and with a Government Departside of the support of Members of Parlia- ment which watches over interests of ment, the support of men like the Mayor this kind. I would further tell them of Cork, who spent himself night and day that the end is not yet. They in order to preserve their interests, Sir have at present, by a private George Courthorpe, and other public men arrangement, involving considerable in the county of Cork. They obtained that responsibility to individuals, by putting support, and they induced the public of forward certain nominees in the interests the south of Ireland to interest them- of the Great Western Railway of Engselves in their scheme. They induced the public of the south of Ireland to bring pressure to bear upon His Grace the Duke of Devonshire, to lend his aid to their plans, and to come into the undertaking which they professed themselves anxious to set on foot. They brought pressure to bear upon the Treasury to abandon an arrangement which they had pub-ing them, of considering them, and of licly entered into with those two joint companies, the Great Western and the Great Southern and Western of Ireland. And here I will take this public opportunity of thanking the right honourable Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury for the great courtesy with which he always received us, the great consideration which he always gave to the representations which we made to him, and for his evident sympathy with the object which we had in view, and for his desire to do what was best for the Irish interests and for the benefit of the south of Ireland as a whole. Having comMr. M. Healy. land, made arrangements with the original promoters of this scheme to take over their interests. Well, that transaction, fortunately, has to come before Parliament for its approval. Fortunately, in all of these transactions dealing with railways and their transfer, Parliament reserved to itself the right of review claiming whether they shall be sanctioned or not; and I have to say, on behalf of the public of the south of Ireland, who have been practically tricked in this matter, that when these gentlemen come before Parliament to ask for Parliamentary sanction to this arrangement, we shall be there to scrutinise those arrangements and to see that justice is done to all concerned. If I and other men in my position or if the gentlemen who interested themselves in this matter-had been gulled in the ordinary way by adventurers and undertakers, I suppose that the best course would have been to hold our tongues |"Now, we have got hold of the Fishguard and to bear cur humiliation with as undertaking it is no longer a certain much dignity as possible. But that is rival, and we will drop this proposal for not the case; we took all the precau- a new railway in Ireland." As they pertions that reasonable men could be sist in pursuing this Bill, I am comexpected to take. This scheme was pelled to believe, considering the matter accredited to us by a Government Depart- candidly, that they certainly intend to ment, and the promoters had been in- carry out their project; and, believing vited to come to us and undertake this that, I think it carries with it the project. We did not deal with these further proposal that, having made the people until we had satisfied ourselves Wexford Railway, they certainly intend that there were behind it men of sub- to set up a great main road between stance, and, as we believed, men of Fishguard and Rosslare. They have honour, who were able to carry out the pledged themselves to us in conference undertaking which they had set on foot, to put upon the sea, between Fishguard and who, we believed, would so carry it and Rosslare, 20-knot steamers, which out. All I can say is that I am a poor would be quite as good as those between man, and these men are rich men, but Dublin and Holyhead. The position for all their wealth I would not be to-day which I therefore have to consider is in the position in which they have placed this: Am I justified in stepping in themselves. So much for the history of between the south of Ireland, and parthe Bill in the past; and perhaps I should ticularly the county of Wexford, and a to some extent apologise to the House for large and beneficial scheme such as this introducing into a Debate of this kind a undertaking would unquestionably be, matter of, more or less, a personal char- simply because the past promoters of acter. I would not have done it if I alone this Bill have dealt with the south of were concerned in it; but, in the interests Ireland in the way which I have of the many public-spirited men of the described? Reference has been made to south of Ireland who have given their the connection of the Great Western support to this scheme, I think it is only Railway with this project. I have no proper that on the floor of this House hostility whatever to the Great Western I should make some such statement as Railway Company. I believe, on the I have now done. That being the past contrary, that the advent in Ireland history of this transaction, let me say a of a great English company, prepared word or two as to the future. I will to spend its money in developing endeavour to sever this transaction from the railway and other resources of that its past and to consider the proposals of country, would be a great blessing to every these promoters in vacuo, as it were, part of Ireland, and for my own part I and without any reference to the trans- welcome the Great Western into Ireland, action which may well excite the irrita- and I only hope that other railway comtion of my mind. Considering it in that panies will follow their example. Considerway, and considering it as the promoters ing, therefore, the proposals of the Bill as now put it before us, it proposes to con- they now stand, and considering them struct across the county of Wexford a alone, I do not think, although perhaps line of railway some 40 miles in length. it would be difficult to show, that the city Some people have said that it is easy to of Cork, which I represent, will gain any make proposals of this kind in a Bill, special benefit from the undertaking, still and that it is one thing to make them it is bound to benefit in a general way and another thing to carry them out. with the country as a whole. It will susThat may be so, but I, for my part, can tain, at any rate, no injury from the prosee no reason why the present promoters posals which are involved, and I, for my of this Bill, if they do not desire to carry part, if the matter stood there, would not out that undertaking, should go forward feel myself justified in asking this House with the Bill at all. It would have been to reject the Bill. But the matter does competent for them, to use a vulgar not stand there. Unfortunately the Great phrase, to square their opponents, to sit Western comes before this House in very down upon the concession, and to say: bad company. Of the Great Western |