grand jury, and then the traverse was | ceeds to assess the value of the land. All presented for trial by a judge and jury at this means enormous expense to the the Assizes, and the judge and jury locality. I have known it to cost £50 assessed that damage. Let me point this for the inspector alone. The inspector out. Antiquated as our Irish grand jury generally makes a personal visit to the system is, it contained 60 years ago the land, and, speaking generally, the proprovision for betterment for which you in cedure is as costly as can be. Now, why England are now fighting so strenuously. should the Government desire to substiIt provides that where a party alleges tute this cumbrous, difficult, and costly that he has suffered by having a new road proceeding for the existing simple promade, the jury in assessing his damages cedure by traverse? I have ranmay take into account whatever benefit sacked the Grand Jury Act in vain to the party derives from the making of the discover any reason why the existing proroad. Now, that is the simplest proce- cedure should be changed. It may be dure conceivable, and what do the Govern- said that under the procedure by traverse ment propose to substitute for it? A the road cannot be made until the holding procedure by Provisional Order, which is of the Assize; that is to say, you can only founded essentially on our Parliamen- do it twice a year. Well, surely that is tary procedure. You have first to adver- quite often enough. Slow as it is, it is not tise three times in the newspapers, which so slow as this procedure will be, and it is is, of course, an expensive procedure. infinitely less costly. I beg to move the Then you have to serve notices on the Amendment standing in my name. owners and occupiers. Then you have to petition the Local Government Board, and you have to prove your case under the Standing Orders exactly as you have before a Committee of Parliament. Then the Local Government Board in Dublin send down an inspector, who holds an inquiry, and, strange to say, when that inspector comes he cannot even assess the damage to the land. All he has to do is to hold an inquiry into the question

whether the road is desirable or not. If

the Local Government Board grant the
Provisional Order you have to serve
notices on all the occupiers, and again to
advertise it at great expense, and then, in
the ordinary course, your Provisional
Order would have to be sanctioned by
Parliament. Fortunately, the Govern-
ment see the wisdom of providing
that the Provisional Order may be
confirmed by the
the Privy Council;
but even then that is a most costly
process, because the parties have to
go to Dublin, they have to have a
hearing before the Privy Council there,
and the Privy Council simply decides the
mere issue whether or not it is desirable
that the road should be made. That is
only the preliminary stage, because when
they approve it you then have to take
proceedings under the Lands Clauses Act
to acquire the land. You have to serve
fresh notices, and lodge a petition to the
Local Government Board, and an arbitra-
tor is sent down from Dublin who pro-
Mr. M. Healy.

Amendment proposed,

"In Clause 10, page 5, line 36, after the word 'duties,' to insert the words, other than the making of a new road or the widening of an old road.'"-(Mr. Maurice Healy.)

MR. KNOX: I trust the right honour

able Gentleman will accept this Amendment. I can see no reason for changing the practice which has worked well for so many years. It is even older than my

honourable Friend said. I believe the practice dates back to an Act passed by the Irish Parliament last century. It is principally due to this procedure that we have any roads in Ireland at all. We have references to it in Arthur Young's "Travels in Ireland." The subject is certainly too important to be discussed in the few minutes now remaining, and I beg to move, Sir, that you report Progress.

Motion made, and Question

"That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again"

put and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.

House adjourned at 12.5.

Against: From Norwood and Putney; Stevenson, Wellington, Leek, Angus, to lie upon the Table.

In favour From Preston (7), Brixton, St. Austell, Mount Charles, Castle Cary, Steep, Grenoside, Cefn Mawr, Groes, Cefn,

Howgrave,

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS
WARNED.

ARUNDEL PORT.

Account of the Commissioners of Arundel
Copy of Annual Report and General
Port for period from 25th March, 1897,
to 25th March, 1898 [by Act].

Laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House.

ILFORD IMPROVEMENT BILL. Reported from the Select Committee

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 25th April; Sir John Gorst]; Penycae, Darlington, Hurst, Gloucester, to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Blackburn, Pendlebury, Manchester, [No. 192.] Cinderford, Coleford, Glossop, Hastings, St. Leonards, Bristol, Chesterfield, Saltergate, Brimington, Newsham, Widdrington, Walmer, Amberley, Bedminster, Collingbourne, Kingston, Shrewsbury (4), Nottingham, Petersfield, Southampton, York, Kidderminster (2), Shepherd's Bush, Bere Alstone, Lower Sheringham, Huddersfield, Yardley, Leytonstone, Rochdale, Maidstone, Bradford (2), New Whittington, Eckington, Walker, Throckley, Southport (2), War-on Police and Sanitary Regulations Bills; wick, Southampton, Lostock Hall, Car- Report to lie upon the Table, and to be Lisle (4), St. Mary Church, Swansea, printed. Gosforth, Wrington, Wells, Cockfield (3), Witham, Crook, Shildon, Gainford, Spennymoor, Tow Law (3), Nosterfield, Low Moor, Colne (2), Clitheroe (2), Par tick, Brierfield, Hythe, Castleford, Sheffield (3), Looe, North Camberwell, Eglinton, Fearby, Ilton, Well, Folkestone, Brighton, Cambridgeshire, Redcar (2), Brotton, Ferryden (2), Munstone, Ewias Harrold, Sunniside, Staindrop, Stucknall Hill, New Church, Salford, Cowarne Court, Hereford (2), Withington, Kenchester, Fauldhouse, Feniscliffe, Elling to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. string, Great Harwood, Tudhoe, Chelsea, Wyke, Llanidloes, Watton, Browney, Bolton, New Brancepeth, Brownlow Fold, Rotherham (2), Idless, Truro, Helston, Godshill (2), Monkhill, Thetford, and Great Grimsby; to lie upon the Table.

SHOP BILLS.

From Scottish Trade Protection

NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL. Reported from the Select Committee on Police and Sanitary Regulations Bills ; Report to iie upon the Table, and to be

printed.

BARRY RAILWAY BILL. Reported; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Fourth Report brought up, and read;

LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN

RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, without Amendment; Re-
port to lie upon the Table, and to be
printed. Bill to be read the third time.

EDINBURGH MERCHANT COMPANY
BILL. [H.L.]

Reported, with Amendments; Report

Society, against; to lie upon the Table. to lie upon the Table.

SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL. From Scottish Trade Protection Society, against; to lie upon the Table.

STEAM ENGINES AND BOILERS
(PERSONS IN CHARGE) BILL.
From Scottish Trade Protection
Society, against; to lie upon the Table.

EASTERN TELEGRAPH COMPANY
BILL. [H.L.]

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table; Bill to be read the third time.

SAINT MATTHEW, BETHNAL GREEN,
BILL. [H.L.]

Reported without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Bill to be read the third time.

insert the words 'other than the making of a
new road, or the widening of an old road.'
(Mr. Maurice Healy.)

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.): I beg to ask the right honourable Gentleman whether he has any objection to the procedure suggested in the Amendment being adopted, instead of that pro

*THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRE

*THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMI-vided by the Bill? RALTY (Mr. G. J. GOSCHEN, St. George's, Hanover Square): I desire to state, with reference to my answer yesterday to the Question of the honourable Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield as to Russian shipbuilding to the effect that

the Russians propose one, or at the most, two battleships, according to the last precise inforImation I have received, but since that there might be more,"

that on returning to the Admiralty I found a dispatch had arrived which gave some apparently well authenticated, though not official, information on Russian shipbuilding, and stated that the number of new battleships to be laid down in Russia in 1898 was three. I gave the communication to the House yesterday, and I thought it right to com

municate the correction to the House to-day.

BOMBARDMENT OF MANILA.

MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.): the right honourable Gentleman what is the position in Manila morning?

*THE FIRST LORD OF THE

Will state this

AD

MIRALTY: In answer to the honourable Member, I may say that we have no telegrams at all from Manila: the cable has been cut, so that none are likely to arrive except through communication with Hong-kong. I will repeat to the House what I said yesterday, that H.M.S. Linnet ought to be on the spot, and that another ship should be sent there to protect British interests.

ORDER OF THE DAY.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
Considered in Committee.

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith), CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS, in the Chair.]

(In the Committee.)
CLAUSE 10.

Amendment again proposed-
"Page 5, line 36, after the word 'duties' to
VOL. LVII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

LAND (Mr. J. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.) said the Government could not honourable Member for Cork. It was accept the Amendment moved by the true that the procedure of the grand juries with reference to the making of roads was cheap and expeditious, but it might be used as a means of causing very great injustice. He did not mean, of course, to say that that power in the past had been abused. Under this Bill the county councils in Ireland would be provided with machinery which was much cheaper, and was based upon much larger powers than were enjoyed by the county councils in England. In England and Scotland, if county councils wanted to make roads or to acquire land, they could only proceed by Provisional Order, which required to be confirmed by Par liament. Under the practice set up by this Bill county councils would no doubt proceed by Provisional Order, but it was not an Order which required confirmation by Parliament at all. The method would be identical with that applicable to the acquisition of land for the purposes of erecting labourers' cottages. It was not contemplated that there would be any difficulty or undue expense. He did not think that the best friends of the county hands almost unlimited powers of accouncils could desire to place in their quiring land.

MR. J. TULLY (Leitrim, S.): I think there is one clause where the Bill will render matters worse than they are at present. At the present time the process in connection with the making of roads is cheap and inexpensive. Under the procedure set out by this Bill it will be a very expensive process, for where, under the old methods we could get a road for £5 law costs, it will cost £50 under the methods set up by this Bill. The right honourable Gentleman has said that he has only followed the procedure of the

N

Labourers Act. Anybody with experi-, whether acquired under this section or other ence in Ireland knows that one of the wise, or erecting any buildings thereon, borrow at interest such sum, or sums of money, on the difficulties in working the Labourers Act security of such of their rates and revenues as was the excessive expenditure caused by the Local Government Board may sanction, this very procedure. The effect of the provided that all sums so borrowed shall be Labourers Act shows that if the law is repaid within such period and in such manner, to be administered with regard to the fund, or otherwise, as the Local Government whether by means of instalments, sinking making of new roads, as it is Board shall prescribe." administered with regard to the building of labourers' cottages under the I am aware that the voluntary provisions Labourers Act, it will be a very long of the English Local Government Bill time before the districts which most will be omitted in this Act, but under require new roads, or require the widening of existing roads, get any relief from the grievances which they have at present. You may ride for 100 miles in Ireland, and you will find that the good roads are in sparsely inhabited districts, and generally lead to the estates of the landlords, whereas people who live in the poorest and most thickly-populated districts have to put up with bad roads. I think, therefore, that if any relief is given this is one of the cases where we should press for it. Under the circumstances, I hope the right honourable Gentleman will see his way to leave the law in no worse position than it was before this Bill was set up.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

*MR. J. J. SHEE (Waterford, W.): I beg to propose, as a further Amendment, to add to page 6, line 6—

"A county council, with the assent of the Local Government Board, may sell, transfer, or alienate any lands, buildings, or easements for the time being vested in them."

*MR. ATKINSON: I do not think the Amendment will be necessary if the honourable Member will look at the Order

in Council.

that Act the power of borrowing is
limited to 30 years, whereas some of the
Corporations in Ireland can borrow for a
At the present
much longer period.
moment I believe the Corporation of
Dublin has borrowed for a term of 55
years, and the object of my Amendment
is to safeguard the rights of the Dublin
Corporation in this respect, and also to
save other similarly situated municipal
bodies in Ireland. Then there is the
further question of borrowing money for
the purpose of improving property. The
original section of the Bill, as drafted,
only confers powers on county councils
to acquire land, but not to improve land
already in their possession. It would be
desirable, in my opinion, that this power
should be given to the local bodies.

*MR. ATKINSON: I think the powers already given by the Bill are sufficient, and that the Amendment is unnecessary.

SIR T. ESMONDE (Kerry, W.): There is one point in connection with this Amendment which. I think is of great importance. I understand that the English county councils have to repay their loans within a very limited number of

years. I think it is desirable that the Irish county councils should be allowed *MR. SHEE: I have seen the Order in to repay their loans over a longer period. Council, and it does not refer to case-I do not see why we should stick to a

ments.

*MR. ATKINSON: We are prepared to make it clear, if necessary, to cover the case of easements.

Amendment withdrawn.

MR. J. L. CAREW (Dublin, College Green): I beg to move as an Amendment to page 6, line 6, to add at end

"A county council may, for the purpose of improving any property belonging to them, Mr. Tully.

hard-and-fast rule, but there is no doubt whatever that, if the Amendment is carried, it will enable the Irish county councils to borrow money on more favourable terms than the English county councils.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE

LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND (Mr. GERALD W. BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): I do not think it is possible for me to give my consent to any Amendment which extends borrowing powers to Irish county