councils beyond the borrowing powers | was decided as regards Ireland; everyallowed to English county councils. body was perfectly satisfied, and English Members had no objection to it." therefore, think we ought to give Irish county councils the power to borrow for a longer time in the case of large and are I, MR. J. J. CLANCY (Dublin County, N.): Perhaps I may be permitted to point out to the right honourable Gentleman that the Amendment was sug- substantial buildings. gested by the Dublin Corporation. They have not the power to borrow money MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Each case for the purpose of improving any pro- of this sort ought to be decided on its perty. In my own constituency there merits. I strongly object to having an a number of cottages which the Irish Bill made a lever with which to Corporation are anxious to take down change the provisions of an English Bill. and rebuild. They have not the power Our general object, of course, is to assimito do that at present, but this Amend-late the law as much as possible between ment will give them that power. Is it Ireland on the one side, and England and reasonable, or is it not, to give such a Scotland on the other. In the interests body power to borrow money to take of future ratepayers—in the interests of down old and dilapidated cottages? posterity I cannot consent to extend to Ireland borrowing powers beyond those given to England. MR. SYDNEY GEDGE (Walsall): It seems to me that the right honourable Gentleman's argument was a little mixed. One moment we are told that we are making this a lever for altering the law in England, another moment we are told that the law in England is to be a lever for constructing the law in Ireland, and another moment we are told that the question ought to be considered on its merits. I submit that, if English law is to be taken as a binding precedent, the case will not be dealt with on its *MR. STRACHEY (Somerset, S.): The as his Chief Secretary has given reason for opposing the Amendment that English county councils can only borrow money for 30 years, and that, therefore, the same rule should be applicable to the Irish county councils. Now, Mr. Lowther, that would be a perfectly good argument if the arrangement under the Bill of 1888 had been found satisfactory in England. But that certainly is not the case. It is a fact that county councils in England very strongly object to the time limit of 30 years. I venture to say that it is a decided hardship in England, and would be an equal hardship in Ireland, when a large building, such as a lunatic asylum, has to be built at the expense of existing ratepayers. To quote the experience in my own county, we have had to borrow the enormous sum of £150,000 to build a new lunatic asylum. It is very unfair that the whole of that large sum has to be paid in the course of 30 years. A large and substantial building of that description alteration. would probably last for 100 years. Why ought to be repaid within 30 years, but should existing ratepayers pay for their there are other loans employed for such successors? The loan should be spread purposes which should be spread over over a larger number of years, so that 50 or 60 years. It is very hard upon those who only derive part of the advan- the existing generation that they should tage shall not have to pay part of have to repay the whole of some loans. the expense. I hope the honourable I submit that this matter may be very Gentleman behind me will persist in his fairly treated on its merits. We have Amendment, because it is not only an the opportunity of doing for Ireland the Irish question, but an English question. justice which we have not done We shall be told afterwards, when we England. For my part I hope we shall in England seek an extension of borrow- do it for Ireland, whatever the conseing powers, "That the question already quences may be in England. I therefore merits. I prefer to improve upon Engits lish law rather than to follow mistakes. It is exceedingly hard and unjust, in my humble opinion, to fix so narrow a limit-I am taking the question now on its merits-for the repayment of loans effected for the purchase of land, or for important buildings, which will probably last a century without Some loans, no doubt, for hope the Chief Secretary will allow this | extended from 30 to 60 years. I cannot Amendment, giving the power to the see why county councils should not Local Government Board to determine have the same privilege. I cannot see what the limit of years shall be in each that, because English county councils case according to the nature of the purchases of land made or buildings erected by the loan, and that after it has been given to Ireland. it will be given to England. have not extended powers, the House of Commons, when passing a Bill amending the law with regard to Irish local government, should not grant them to Irish county councils. The county which I represent has expended an enormous sum of money in building a new asylum. We have had to spend £150,000; a poor agricul tural constituency like that cannot properly afford this heavy charge. They naturally want to cut the expense down to the lowest possible sum. What does this mean? It means that the cheapest possible building will be put up. If, however, the expense were allowed to extend over 60 years instead of 30, it is natural that the ratepayers would be willing to spend rather more money to get better buildings than they can do now. I would certainly urge the Government to take advantage of the present Bill to extend the term to years. *MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.): I hope the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will yield to this Amendment. I think this is a case in which the Committee need not be very jealous of the rights and privileges of posterity. This question of borrowing money must necessarily develop in different parts of the Empire according to the circumstances of those different parts. Though it may be possible in England to borrow money with facility which has to be repaid within 30 years, it may be more difficult in Ireland to carry out that arrangement. The Corporation of Dublin, as has already been observed by one of the honourable Members. who has spoken, are very much interested in this question, because MR. JOHN DILLON (Mayo, E.): they have a great deal of property There are three points to be considered in which is at present in a dilapidated con- connection with this question: first, the dition, and they are unable to do anything in the way of improving it for the borrowed; second, the material by which purpose for which the money may be want of the powers set forth by the it may be repaid; and third, the period Amendment. No reason has been given for which it may be retained. by my right honourable and learned Amendment, I think, ought to be heartily Friend the Attorney General for Ireland welcomed, because I can see no reason why this power should not be given to for denying to the Corporation of Dublin the Corporation except that cast-iron or to any county council. the right to reason, that in the English Act passed put buildings into repair. If the Amendso many years ago, the limit fixed was ment is necessary for that purpose, it is 30 years. I am very glad that some clear that it ought to be supported. With honourable Members representing Eng regard to the question of the time within lish constituencies have intervened and which the money must be repaid, the come to the help of Ireland on this period of 30 years is provided in the occasion. I trust that the right honour-draft Order in accordance with the able Gentleman will accept the Amendment. He will have observed that we have it on the authority of Members of English constituencies that the term prescribed for the repayment of loans has proved inadequate even in a rich country like this. SIR THOMAS LEA (Londonderry, S.): Later on I intend to propose an Amendment that the powers of boards of guardians for borrowing shall be Mr. Gedne. The English Act. But what is the position of the Chief Secretary? The right honourable Gentleman has changed once more, and now says that the English law as regards borrowing is to be for Ireland. the laws of the Medes and Persians. No matter what the merits of a question are, it must not be discussed on its merits, and the Chief Secretary says that what is the law in England must be the law in Ireland, and he refuses to recognise any change. But two sub-sections. I do not quarrel with that procedure, because I think the subsections were not very applicable. One was a power to borrow for the purpose of emigration. We do not want a power for that purpose, but possibly a power to borrow for the purpose of migration might be inserted in its place. The Government profess that they are bound to follow, with regard to this question of borrowing, the exact precedent of the English Act, but that is an absurd contention; they have not followed the English Act, they have cut and carved it according to their own free will. that is not the principle upon which the right honourable Gentleman has been proceeding throughout. Only yesterday, when I endeavoured to assimilate the law of Ireland to the law of England, I was told that the circumstances of the two countries were quite different, and that, therefore, the Government had seen fit to change and depart from the law in England. If that be a good enough argument in the case of malicious injuries, and other matters which were discussed recently, it is a good enough argument in the present instance; and if the law in England, after an experience of 10 years, has been found to work harshly and oppressively, is not that a good THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY argument for altering the law in Ireland? | (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): In my opinion it is a foolish argument In copying the provisions of the English that, because a certain system of borrow- Act we, of course, were not fighting for ing has been found suitable in a rich country like Great Britain, therefore it must be applied to a poor country like Ireland. The proposition is ridiculous, and only requires to be stated in order to refute itself. It is an illustration of the difficulties that will arise that the Government should have dealt with this question of the powers of borrowing, not by the simple process of putting in the Bill a clause which would be open to amendment, but by a draft Order to which we can move no Amendment. That is an extremely inconvenient manner of dealing with an important point. When the Bill was at the Second Reading stage the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary said the Government had taken every precaution to secure that nothing of a contentious nature was placed on draft Orders; but can any honourable Member say that a question like this, of the period in which a loan is to be repaid, is strictly non-contentious? The whole question of the powers of borrowing to be conferred on county councils is contentious, and, therefore, the Chief Secretary would have been better advised not to have relegated it to a draft Order, but to have put it fairly and honestly in the Bill. Anyone, to hear the right honourable Gentleman speak, would suppose that in the case of this draft Order Ireland had exactly the same law as England, but, so far as my memory serves me, that is not the case. The THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREAChief Secretary has taken a clause out SURY: The rights of the Dublin of the English Act, and dropped one or Corporation any party or any class whatever; but for the interests, in theory at all events, and for the advantage of the ratepayers of the future. And I do not admit that the relative poverty of Ireland ought to be taken into account in this matter. On the contrary, I should say that the poorer a district is, whether a whole county or a particular area, the more careful should we be not to throw upon posterity a burden which is found difficult for the present generation to bear. But it is perfectly true that the House of Commons has sanctioned already in other Acts an extension of the term of borrowing to boards of guardians in England, and, I think, to district councils, subject, of course, to the absolute control of the English Local Government Board. I would, therefore, suggest that this question should be deferred to Report. The Government will carefully consider it, and, if they come to the conclusion that a relaxation in the English and Scottish Acts would be desirable, we shall be prepared, without waiting for that, to introduce the change proposed in this Amendment. But you must allow us time to consider the general bearings of the case. I think it will be felt that the course I propose is not unreasonable. MR. J. J. CLANCY: I wish to direct attention to the case of the Corporation of Dublin. are not affected by this proposal; whatever rights the Corporation have got they retain. MR. CLANCY: Certainly. MR. CLANCY: May I say that it has always been a matter of doubt whether the Corporation can expend a single penny for this purpose and that the demands on the fund are now so large that they cannot expend it? It is a mere matter of words. They have no money, and they must borrow. *MR. ATKINSON: That is not the MR. CLANCY: The Corporation of question before the Committee. The Dublin at present have what is called a Amendment is whether the Corporation Borough Fund to draw upon for the im- can expend the Borough Fund upon this provement of their estate. This fund work. is derived, not from rates, but from the revenue of the city. It has always been regarded as a matter of doubt by the Corporation whether they could expend any of that money in the improvement of their estate. But some part of it has been expended in that way, and the demands upon the Borough Fund are so large that it is impossible for the Corporation to undertake improvements on either the county or city estates. They have an estate in the city bringing in a revenue of £20,000 a year, and an outside estate bringing in £6,000. On both estates, but particularly on the outside portion, there is a large number of dilapidated houses and cottages. Constant complaints are made about them and they are described as a reproach to the Corporation. This is not a question of the time within which the loan is to be repaid; the question is whether the Corporation have power to expend the money upon these improvements. The Corporation does not ask an extension of time for repayment. The Amendment of the right honourable Gentleman leaves it absolutely in the power of the Local Government Board to fix not only the interest, but the security and the manner and time of repayment, and the Board is to have the final word in all these matters. The question is whether the Corporation can expend the Borough Fund upon this work. I would suggest that the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary should reconsider the matter, and, seeing that a specially strong case has been made out for the Corporation of Dublin, that he should give it his attention. *MR. ATKINSON: The honourable Member has raised an altogether different question from that raised on the Amendment. The honourable Member is discussing the question whether it is desirable that the Corporation of Dublin should be empowered to expend part of the Borough Fund on the repairs of certain Corporation property. The First Lord of the Treasury. *MR. ATKINSON: If the Corporation of Dublin are not prepared to apply their Borough Fund to repairing their property, then the proper course is for them to get powers of borrowing. MR. CLANCY: That is exactly what they want. *MR. ATKINSON: That is a different thing from authorising them to borrow money repayable within 30 years for the purpose of repairing property. MR. CLANCY: The law fixes the time and manner of repayment. Amendment withdrawn. On the Question that Clause 10 stand part of the Bill, MR. T. M. HEALY: The right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary made a very important statement in reference to the question of taking land. He suggested that the tribunal proposed to be set up, while apparently giving the right of a more extende:1 power to take land, in reality destroys the most ancient right which has existed in Ireland, and which has aroused the admiration of travellers. The Privy Council is a very unsuitable body to deal with questions regarding the taking of lands for roads. It is besides a very expensive body, and I would suggest for the consideration of the Chief Secretary two things-either that this matter should be confined to the judges of the Privy Council, who will not be open to any should go to the judges of assize. It is illegitimate form of pressure, or that it contended that this is a beneficent 277 MR. T. M. HEALY: Is there not clause. It is nothing of the kind; on|mittee of the Privy Council for the first the contrary, I regard it as one to which time. the strongest objection might be urged. It seems to me that the Government are "worsening" the law; making it in Ireland worse than it is in England. They are giving these powers to a body of a The Privy most unsuitable character. Council is a most unsuitable tribunal for I regard this MR. T. M. HEALY: I think there is. any purpose of this sort. The question of roads as one of the most GERALD BALFOUR: MR. important; but, as we go on step by step, changes which the honourable Members we find these new bodies being swathed and bound in coils of restrictions, like desire us to introduce in addition to those we wish to introduce in Irish procedure, the Davenport Brothers, by the legal as compared with English procedure, artifices of the right honourable Gentleman-artifices which are not apparent to would involve very considerable changes the general intelligence of the Committee, in the law, and those changes I am not because they are obscured by a system of repeals. I think the Government prepared to adopt. might give a pledge to consider before Report the character of the tribunal with regard to roads. The MR. GERALD BALFOUR: honourable Member for North Louth has compared the county councils bound in coils of and "swathed to the restrictions" Davenport Brothers; but the peculiarity of the Davenport Brothers was that they were not in the least embarrassed by their bandages. The honourable Member is, I think, exaggerating the difficulties in connection with the county councils. The restrictions placed upon the Irish county councils in this respect are actually less than the restrictions which are placed upon the county councils for the purpose of roadmaking either in England or Scotland. We have substituted the Irish Privy Council for Parliament because we thought the proposal would be more acceptable to the people of Ireland than procedure by Provisional Order. I have not heard anything which has led me to think that we were not right in taking that view. The substitution of the judges of assize for the Privy Council would be to adopt an entirely new procedure, and one to which I am not prepared to accede. With regard to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, I believe there is no such body in law. It might be desirable, if there should be such a body, to refer this question to it, but we should have to create a Judicial Com MR. TULLY: I wish to know whether under this section power will be given are the MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork City): I lament the conclusion at which the Government has arrived in regard to this question of roads, because it will really in many cases render the making of roads impossible. At the present time the law costs involved in constructing a small road are amply covered by a fivepound note; but when this Bill is passed I challenge any county council to make the smallest road at an expense of even £50. I say that after considerable experience of procedure by Provisional Order, and I say that county solicitors are the only persons provided for in this Bill. I congratulate the county solicitors particularly upon this clause. When you substitute for the British Parliament the Irish Privy Council, every farmer or land |