Members from Ireland on this side of the House is that it will enable the county in which this exceptional distress arises to apply relief at the time when it is most wanted-that is, at the outset of the distress, and it may very often happen that in a district where this distress arises, having the advantage of knowing it, and being there on the spot where the distress exists, they will be able to a greater or a less degree, by the immediate application of relief, to prevent that distress assuming an acute form.

intend to suggest by that, that distress does not arise at times in a very acute and severe form in these congested districts. At the present moment I am satisfied that there is in Ireland in many of these congested districts distress of a very intense and a very acute form. But, on the other hand, when the county council know that it is possible that they may be appealed to and asked to apply at the outset to distress of this character this exceptional relief, that will make them more careful to ascertain the exact facts as to the nature of the distress. And, above all, the clause provides what is most valuable and most wanted on

AN IRISH MEMBER: Where is the the occasion when this distress money to come from?

arises, that is, it affords to those upon the spot, and who are, there

tress, power to apply without delay a remedy which will check the distress, and which the Government is not in a position to supply so satisfactorily.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Why not? MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL: I wish to in answer to that question, we all know that a Govern

say,
that

ment

move

MR. J. H. M. CAMPBELL: Therefore, best acquainted with the disfore it is that this section contains a most important ingredient-namely, the power that is given to the county council, if they so desire, to apply immediately, and at at the very outset of the distress, that relief which may render subsequent aid unnecessary. But, further, I believe that this section affords and will afford if only roughly -the means of testing the reality of department must necessarily the distress. Now, the right honourwith a certain amount of able Gentleman the Chief Secretary for slowness. The Government in Dublin Ireland has said that in Ireland, when Castle must satisfy themselves by local the opportunity arises to put your hand inquiry by their own officials as to the into the Imperial pocket, there is a nature and extent of the distress. But in strong desire on the part of Irish- the case of the county council within men to plunge in as deeply as the county it will have upon it members they can. Well, I do not think that some of whom must necessarily come they are singular in that respect. I think, from the very area of the distress, and perhaps, the same observation might they will have in their own power more apply to the inhabitants of this country facilities. and more means of acquiring a and of Scotland; and certainly I think rapid and accurate knowledge of the that if there is any indication of a desire nature and extent of the distress. on the part of Irishmen to indulge in now there is just one other matter with that luxury more than the inhabitants regard to the argument used as to the of this country and of Scotland, to some unfairness of taxing remote parts of the extent the blame for that must lie upon country for the purpose of relieving disthe shoulders of Her Majesty's Govern-tress at the other end of the country. ment and her predecessors who, by per- It must be borne in mind that that mitting a system of land agitation, have observation applies, perhaps not with placed a direct premium upon exaggera- the same force, but it certainly applies tion in this country. But, apart from with some force in the case of the poor considerations of that sort, we upon rate. It also applies in the case of all this side of the House are in those county charges, because they are favour of the inclusion of this contributed to by the ratepayers of the clause for the reason I have already entire county for general purposes, conmentioned, because we believe that it sequently this proposal is more likely will be a very good test of the reality to directly benefit the isolated portions of of the distress. I do not for a moment the country. There must be some area Mr. J. H. Campbell.

And

that will be liable for the burdens within disposal as this House might have for that area, and until we can find some- the relief of distress. In bad times thing better, I can see no better defini- the county will suffer as much as tion of the area than the area repre- the particular union affected. I think sented by the county council. I hope you will want a larger purse than the the Government will see their way to retain this clause, which, I believe, for the reasons I have mentioned, will be found to work well and satisfactorily. MR. W. S. ROBSON (South Shields):

county can find to give adequate relief, and I think that disposes of the argument of the honourable and learned Member opposite. There is one point satisfactory in the promise of the Chief Secretary. The Chief Secretary It is claimed for this clause that it is designed to relieve distress said with the greatest candour and in Ireland at the expense of the Imperial explicitness that this clause was not Exchequer. Now, Sir, if the clause had intended to relieve the Imperial Parliareally that bent, and would produce that ment of its duty in Ireland in regard to I think that is a result without injustice to Ireland, I for exceptional distress. one should be inclined to support it. most satisfactory statement, but it puts the Committee into this difficulty: we But I confess that I am very doubtful have now to proceed upon a promise indeed about the beneficial effects of this while there is a clause put into the Bill clause, and I am more doubtful still which appears to some extent to break since I heard the speech of the Chief that promise. Therefore I think we Secretary for Ireland. Now, I was struck cannot absolutely accept this statement, with a contradiction in that speech. The right honourable Gentleman said that although I am quite sure the right honourable Gentleman beyond doubt there exists in the west was perfectly serious in what he said. when he stated of Ireland a condition of things-a that Parliament would not be relieved chronic condition of things-which was a of its duty in this respect. But even subject proper for Imperial considera- that would not justify him in including tion, and which demanded an Imperial this clause in the Bill. remedy. Now, that was an admission, able Friend who has just sat down

but see what it amounted to. You have

in Ireland a condition of things, and that
condition of things is chronic. Now, I
cannot see how anyone can agree with
the Chief Secretary. If it be true that
there exists in Ireland this dreadful con-
dition of things, I do not think this
House ought to shirk its duty. This
condition of things is apart altogether
from exceptional distress, and when that
distress becomes exceptional we become
excluded from blame. I do not think
that any English Member on this side.
of the House, however anxious he may
to remedy this state of things, can pos-
sibly support this clause.

My honour

says the object of the clause is to relieve this House of responsibility. Although that was denied by the argument of the Chief Secretary, yet I am sure that he will admit that this clause

is, to some extent, to relieve this House. The way the law stands at present is that when a union has satisfied the

Local Government Board that there is exceptional distress, then this House in the future, this House will have intervenes. But, as the law will stand a second barrier, and will say that be dence that exceptional distress exists. the county has not given sufficient eviIt will fall back on the union, and then on the county, and so another barrier will be erected. I think this law casts a most invidious duty on the county

*MR. THOMAS LOUGH (Islington, W.): The point raised by the honourable Member on the opposite side of the House seems to be this: he said, very truly, that the county members of the council would have more knowledge of the dis

council. There will be a union in the county making a strong claim for relief. The county council will naturally wish tress than this House would have. But, to protect the other areas of the county. the relief of distress is not But, on the other hand, it will have tion of knowledge, it is a question certain sympathies with the distressed of the purse, and these Irish counties area, and this clause will create a cause have not got such good means at their of strife between one of the districts

a ques

AND

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS MEANS: I really must call the honourable Member to order again.

*MR. THOMAS LOUGH: If you rule me out of order I must desist, but I wanted to show that the distress had been caused in Ireland by the obligations this House placed upon that country, and, therefore, this House cannot escape its responsibility. During the last few years we greatly increased those burdens, and, as we are increasing them, we ought not to withdraw from helplocalities affected. While

in Ireland-that is, 13 times in which to contribute £9 10s. per head more the English Parliament has had to give than it formerly contributed. relief. I do not think that any Parliament could be more reluctant to relieve distress than this Parliament. Well, that is my opinion. Mark the reluctance of the Chief Secretary. How much has he given to relieve the present distress? Only about £30,000; therefore I say that no Parliament that ever met could be more reluctant to intervene in these emergencies than this Parliament. I say that if this Parliament, which is so reluctant to relieve distress, has had to do so 13 times, then it is a fair argument that there is something in the policy ing of this Parliament which causes the the present Government has been distress. I cannot help suggesting one reason that may go to the bottom of this question, and which I will not go into at any length. We cannot leave out of the question the burdens which this House puts upon these districts. Now, I had a little table put in my hand yesterday, which sets out in a graphic way what these obligations are. There is at the bottom of this paper a statement of the financial obligations which this House throws upon every person in Ireland. They are figures, and, therefore, I am very reluctant to give them to the Committee. But I can put them in a simple manner before the Committee. I take them from a leaflet dealing with Ireland during the Queen's reign.

There are about half a dozen facts which show conclusively these two great changes that is, how much the financial obligations were which this House threw upon Ireland in 1837 and how much they are to-day. By the figures given here each family had in 1837 to pay, under the obligations of this House, a total tax of £4 per family; now, in 1897, the total tax paid is £13 10s. per family. Therefore, during the 60 years of Her Majesty's reign £9 10s. per head has been added to the contribution which each family has to make to local and Imperial taxation in Ireland. This leaflet also shows that this increase did not take place during the first 20 years of this reign, but was entirely made within the last 40 years. Every family of five in Ireland has been made VOL. LVII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

in office that burden has increased £1
per family. I know that it will be said
the Congested Districts Board, but that
that we have given some relief through
is only 6s. per family. Within the past
10 years we have increased the burdens
of Ireland £2 per family, and within
the last three years £1 per family;
and we keep on increasing these
burdens. Now, what is the use of these
trifling forms or relief? My argument,
Mr. Lowther, is this-and I am glad that
the Committee are patient enough to
allow me to put it thus--that, as this
House retains in its own hands the
power of laying these obligations on
Ireland which cause the distress,
it is most unfair that, at the same
time, you should withdraw, by the pro-
visions of this Bill, from the responsi-
bility of assisting this distress after you
have created it. That is my argument.
I say that the distress in Ireland can be
traced to nothing so clearly as to the
burdens which this House puts on Ire-
land, and, therefore, this House ought
to be ready to relieve the situation when
it arises. There is one other point,
which is not connected with any of these
figures, which I would like to say
a word upon, because the right
honourably Gentleman has alluded to
it in the course of this Debate.
The right honourable Gentleman said,
in reply to, I think, the honourable
Member for the Scotland Division of
Liverpool, that he was still of opinion
that in many of the districts of Ireland
relief could only be had by diminution of
U

a

the population. Well, now, on that point | state of things is one which, to the I should like to call the attention of the humiliation of this country has, in the Committee to the fact that during the opinion of the Government, justified the last ten years the population has insertion of this clause in the Local diminished 400,000, and during the last Government Act of Ireland. And what 40 or 50 years it has decreased 4,000,000. is the condition this Act is designed to Now I put it to the Committee whether remedy? A state of "exceptional disany relief can be found in the diminution tress.' They recognise a normal condiof the population after what has already tion of distress; they recognise taken place. You do not get better chronic condition of distress as existing, You and pass as you diminish the population. it by. But when the have greater poverty with the smaller distress becomes to be population than you had when there was a larger population. The Report of the Royal Commissioners shows that since 1870 pauperism has increased by 46 per cent. in Ireland, while it has diminished by 26 per cent. in Great Britain. So that the more rapidly your population decreases your p..uperism increases.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I do not think these figures are accurate.

*MR. LOUGH: They are taken from the Report of the Royal Commission, and I hope the right honourable Gentleman will give me the opportunity to show him the statistics presently. The whole subject of Irish distress requires treat ment on broader lines than have yet been tried by the House, but do not let us fore. stall that opportunity by putting these clauses in the present Bill.

SO acute as

called exceptional, even for Ireland, then they proceed to provide not an Imperial, but a local remedy. Now, Sir, whatever you may account the -whether it be due in part to causesover taxation, as my honourable Friend said a moment ago, or whether it be due, as I think it mainly is, to the economic circumstances of the congested districts -that the population are herded too closely together upon unfertile soil, under circumstances in which it is impossible for them to live as in this civilised whatever, I say, the cause, we ought to Christian country they should liveopportunity of living under conditions see that the population are given the which afford them a reasonable opportunity to be provident and thrifty. For unless you give them the hope of saving you cannot expect that they will be otherwise than in the condition which has been described in those dull and dry blue books, which are yet among the most MR. E. BLAKE (Longford, S.): I pathetic reading to be found. These desire to protest against the retention show what the miserable lives are that of this clause in this Bill. I cannot but these people live. The chronic circumfeel, Sir, that anything which will render stances are so low-the margin between less incumbent upon this House the con- these people and destitution and starvasideration upon every occasion, until the tion is so slight-that the accident of a permanent remedy is applied, of the con- single less fertile harvest produces a state dition of chronic distress which exists in of exceptional distress. I say it is a the congested districts in Ireland is shame and a blot, and a disgrace for the a misfortune for that country, and is a whole country. fo. this great Empire. misfortune for this House and for this whose prosperity and wealth and general country too. Because for that chronic comfort were depicted the other day in condition of distress, to which is due the the glowing language of the Budget periods of exceptional distress, it is ad- specch, that the dreadful condition to mitted by the Government of the day which I have alluded should subsist and frankly, whatever its causes, whoever be acknowledged as chronic-that may be responsible for its origin, they are we should be told that the Imperial remeresponsible to-day in the sense that it is dies must be slow, that we can only allean Imperial matter, a matter for the viate the condition of the people by House of Commons to master and to degrees, and then that a condition of remedy. I care not whose fault it may acute and intolerable distress-on one have been, or upon whose shoulders the word, famine-or starvation, or next door original responsibility is placed; the to it, growing out of the normal state,

Mr. Lough.