In

clause, but the meaning of it is of these tenants as may, perhaps, carry this: there is a certain district in out the theory of the honourable and Ireland where the inhabitants are learned Member for Down, whom I am paying rates at 10s. in the £, and sorry not to see in his place, whose arguhalf of the people there are starving. ment seems to be that the people who this case you feed the starving half of have to exist on the crags and shores of the people at the expense of the other the Atlantic in the west of Ireland have half, and that is what is called British no right to exist at all, and that there generosity. There is still in force the is nothing left for them to do but to Poor Relief Act of 1862, which prevents throw themselves into the surging waves, outdoor relief from being given where or go to another and a more generous the applicant occupies more than a country. quarter of an acre of land. Now that check is removed, and the Local Government Board may sanction the administration versity): I am sure, Sir, that the Com

MR. EDWARD CARSON (Dublin Uni

of outdoor relief in the case of occumittee, or any of them who have listened piers of 10, 12, or 15 acres, who may to the speech of the right honourable and learned Member who has just sat down, want it very much; and what a burden that will be upon an impoverished dis- must have been deeply affected by the trict council and the county at large! graphic description of Irish life which he has drawn. I should very much have liked There, again, you see the effect of this clause. You see that the burdens to have followed him in the arguments created by this clause are almost without he has brought forward, but I have only limit, and I regard with grave suspicion risen for the purpose of explaining the the confusion of circumstances which the able and learned men who are responsible for the framing of this clause have introduced. I regard it with great suspicion, when I recollect that every penny of that burden must be borne by the occupying tenant. This Bill is absolutely without precedent and without parallel in the history of British law. It is without parallel in the history of any community that I am aware of, because the effect of it is to relieve land-body who knows anything of the different lords, whether they are absentee landlords or whether they are resident landlords who have not the land in their own

reasons for my vote upon this Amend-
ment if it goes to a Division. I do not,
however, agree with many of the argu-
ments put forward by my right honour-
able Friend, or with the arguments of
many honourable Members opposite. At
the same time, from the view
that I take of the section, and
the probable effect of its working, I feel
bound to vote in favour of the Amend-
ment. Now, Sir, in the first place, every-

parts of
of Ireland, where exceptional
distress dealt with under this section
is so constantly occuring, knows that
those are the very places which at the

hands, but for whom the money is made by the hewers of wood and present moment are most heavily taxed. the drawers of water. This clause exonerates the landlords from any contribution to the expenses of the county for the maintenance of the roads, to the keeping up of bridges and court-houses, or the maintenance of the workhouses, but it throws the whole burden on to the occupying tenants, and thus may fasten such a millstone round the necks

In some places the taxes are so high as to make it almost incredible that the people of Ireland can possibly pay them. Well, Sir, if these people are to be told that it is their duty whenever this exceptional distress arises to add further burdens to the rates, and that that is to be the only hope of the people, then, Sir, I can only say that you are telling them that they may be hopeless in the

future. Sir, I believe there are many that the very limitation or protection places where it would be impossible, with- you are putting in now for the owners out terrible calamities, to increase the of the land as compared with the occurates for these purposes. In these very piers will become so burdensome in these districts, Sir, what is the reality of the distressed districts that you will have situation? The reality of the situation in a year or two the whole of the Party is this: that the parties who pay the opposite agitating the country, and rates, or the greater portion of the rates, saying that it is intolerable that the rates will be perhaps three, four or five, or should be borne only by the occupiers, up to 10 per cent. of the whole of the and not be shared in by the owners or electors of the division, and the conse- landlords at all. I will tell you, Sir, quence will be that by giving this power what will happen, and that is that, whatto the county councils in many places ever Government is in power, when it you will be having on your register of comes to be a question of merely sacrificelectors the very men who are perpetually ing the landlords, the Government will suffering from this recurring starvation. be perfectly ready to do it. Therefore, I am told that the Members who usually Sir, being bound to look ahead in these act with me, or with whom I usually matters-and matters move rapidly in act, differ from the view which I take this House-I say that I am speaking in upon this question. Well, Sir, let me the interests of those with whom I ask them this: looking at the question usually act, and of those whom from a practical point of view, what do deeply sympathise with in Ireland, when they think is likely to be the result of I say that this is one of the most mis

the electorate being the men who want the very relief which the county council are to vote, and which is the only remedy for the distress which arises? It must be, from point of fact, that the men who are suffering from the distress will be practically voting relief to themselves. Well, Sir, but do honourable Members who sit here on this side of the House think that this will only operate on those in occupation? Sir, I know very well that every recurring distress in Ireland in any part must more or less militate against the landlords and the owners of the tenements from which these rents are to be paid. It is all nonsense to tell me that if a tenant is mulcted in the necessary rates which must arise under the system that you want to set up by this section-it is all nonsense to tell me that when those rates are raised to the extent that will be necessary to meet this distress the tenant will be in exactly the same position for the purpose of paying his rent to the landlord. In the long run I know what will happen, and that will be Mr. Carson.

chievous sections in the whole of the Act. I have merely risen for the purpose of stating the reasons why I intend to vote for this Amendment, and if it goes to a Division I shall certainly support it.

Motion made, and Question put

"Page 7, line 11, to leave out sub-section 3." the court and inquired into. It is only (Mr. Clancy.)

such means as that. I think the Government ought to have the power of removing the coroner which they have at present. At present, as I understand, it is

satisfied, under the circumstances, to leave the law with regard to this subject where it stands now. I beg to move.

AND

CHAIRMAN *THE OF WAYS MEANS: The question is, clause 13, page 7, line 11, that sub-section 3 be omitted.

any judge in the land. Questions of very serious importance often arise, cases of murder or suspected murder, and the like, and it seems to me that an officer discharging such duties, and presiding not only in the power of the Governover investigations of such a character, ment to set the law in motion, but it is and having such subjects to inquire into, in the power of any subject of the Crown ought to be quite as independent as a to take action if he has a good ground for county court judge or a judge of the doing so, and the matter comes before High Court, though even at present he competent tribunals, presided over by has not such absolute security. He the highest judges in the land, and the cannot be removed, like a judge of the proceedings would be reported by the High Court, by an address to both public Press. The public would be enHouses of Parliament; he can only titled to go and hear the proceedings, and be removed from his office by a motion I think the Government ought to be before the Lord Chief Justice. Upon that motion the coroner can be heard, and it is only plain justice that if he is to be removed now, he ought to have the protection he at present enjoys-namely, the opportunity of defending himself before a judicial tribunal. If this subsection is carried, the Lord Lieutenant will have absolute power at his own discretion to remove the coroner. You will MR. T. M. HEALY: I am aware, Mr. have one judge sitting in judgment on Lowther, that this sub-section was taken another judge, and having the power of out of the English Act-the English depriving him of his office upon his own Coroners Act—and, of course, I acknowresponsibility and upon his own motion. ledge that so far as symmetry is conThat state of things would be intolerable cerned. it is apparent, but it is absurd in the eyes of the public, and I do not to argue that the countries are in any think the public would have confidence sense alike. In this country you have in a coroner who was so subject to the a vigilant Parliament and a vigilant will of any judge of the land. They Press, and the interests of the whole would not have confidence in a coroner people conserved by Parliament. In Irewhom it would be possible to remove land you have a hostile Lord Chancellor without his being heard in his own and an indifferent Parliament, and whatdefence. In this case, under this clause, ever is done against Ireland, you have a judge can act upon his own motion, he the general body here agreeing that it need not have any evidence upon which is perfectly right. Under those circumto go. He may, as an executive officer, stances, to take the words of the English decline to give his reasons for removing Act and to say it was sufficient in the him, and I can imagine some cases in past here is not sufficient. You have which he might say, "I do not think it no justification, so far as I know, for desirable in the public interest to men- doing so. I never shall forget the case tion my reasons." Imagine a coroner of the honourable Baronet the Member being placed in such an invidious posi- for West Kerry when he was Sheriff for tion as that. It would be intolerable, the city of Waterford. He, my perfectly intolerable, and no public man able Friend's father, held large estates would continue to perform his functions in the county of Wexford and in the if he were subjected to removal by county of Waterford, and he had for 20 Mr. Clancy.

honour

years been Sheriff of the city of Water-some means could be found in law to ford. Well, he made a speech one day remove the coroner from his position. which was not favourably received by Accordingly, as I understand, there is the Lord Chancellor. I think it will be that ancient process in the hands of the admitted that my honourable Friend's Chief Justice, and now you are going to father was not an extreme revolutionist. give a power to the Lord Chancellor, so One day he received a letter by the that when you may have been successpenny post, asking him to explain his ful at the hands of the Chief Justice speech, and he ceased to be Sheriff from you may have to go with all the chances that time. That is not the principle in against you to the Lord Chancellor, and, England. In England a prisoner is therefore, I support the Amendment of assumed to be innocent until he is proved my honourable Friend. guilty. I should like to know what MR. G. MURNAGHAN (Tyrone, Mid): would happen, supposing we differed from the Lord Chancellor to-day, as it has I hope the Government will stand by this always been the honour for me to do, sub-section. I stand here in the interest without more protection than we have, so of the ratepayers, and I have no feeling far as these functions are concerned, I desire whatever against the coroners. to which is attached a salary of £200 or local government, and good local government. I desire to see the government £300 a year, upon which a man depends for his living, and for which he may carried out in a manner satisfactory to of the country properly and efficiently have given up some other means of the people of Ireland. And I say livelihood. He is suddenly to be removed by a sort of fluctuating official advisedly that the Government would be

ill-advised to withdraw this sub-section and allow the coroners to hold office the Government will stand by this clause independent of any authority. I do hope and insist upon giving Ireland men who will fulfil these functions in a proper manner, and with efficiency.

who goes out and comes in with the Ministry. What is the protection of the county council? In this country you have a great Parliament. You had the Miss Cass case, and the whole House was revolutionised because a woman was taken off the streets to prison; the whole country was shaken to its foundations; MR. ATKINSON: Having regard to but you might have all the women and the duties which coroners discharge, it children in Ireland starving, and you is obvious that there should be some would not shake this country in the power of removing them from office in slightest degree. I think there is no case they are unable to discharge their reason why, when getting the county duties. The coroner has to discharge councils into the country, they should duties of a judicial character, and at the be subjected to tyranny of this kind. present moment he can be removed by Furthermore, there is in the law of this a judge or by the Lord Chancellor. It country an ancient device I have never is obviously desirable that the power seen a writ myself for the removal of a should be vested in somebody to remove coroner but I have always under- in the case of persons who are unable stood that the Chief Justice of the to discharge the duties of their position. Queen's Bench is, by virtue of his posi-I think that power to dismiss the coroner tion, Her Majesty's chief coroner over for misconduct may be safely left in the that particular part where he presides, hands of the Lord Chancellor. and that he has some means in his power of depriving the coroner of his MR. MAURICE HEALY (Cork City): office. I do not know how that would It is perfectly right that there should work, but, if it were necessary, I think exist that power, but that power does