be drawn now into large considerations sation. And I say that that experience of general policy, but do not let it be is not the experience of Matabeleland said that if that policy is wrong it is alone. It is the experience of our own the fault of the Chartered Company, or Colonies all over Africa, and has been of chartered companies alone. It is a the experience of every other European policy which has necessarily been pur- nation which has had anything to do The next sued by the Imperial Government as well with African possessions. as by chartered companies, and by every point is as to the administration of jusnation and every ruler who has been tice. Here I must say I was sorry to brought into contact with savage and hear the honourable Gentleman say that, barbarous nations. The next statement as I understood him, he had evidence, of the honourable Gentleman referred or that it was admitted that justice had to the treatment of the natives, and es- not been properly administered. pecially to the regulations under which what he called almost a state of slavery prevailed. I think he used that word with some hesitation, and in my opinion *MR. JOHN ELLIS: What I intended to say, and what, I think, I said, was that I was in possession of many instances in which there had been a failure of justice both civil and criminal. have them communicated to me, because up to the present time I must say that, although I have had many communications, some of them criticising the administration of the Chartered Company, have had no complaint whatever to the administration of justice another word he used much more correctly expressed the situation that did exist in Matabeleland and Mashonaland THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE at the time to which he referred to the COLONIES: I should be very glad, policy of the corvée, which is, after all, something entirely different from a policy if those instances have any bearing of slavery. The corvée existing in Mata-upon the present, and if there is beleland was of this nature-that the any evidence attached to them, to natives, against their will, were practically compelled to give a certain time of the year to ordinary industrial labour. It was not the whole of their time, but I think it was three months in the year that the native chiefs had to furnish a 1 certain proportion of labour for the as mines. I am not going at length into in that territory. The judges of that to-night, because it is a matter the High Court are all gentlemen, which we shall have to deal with in th: I believe, of the very highest reputation. regulations, which, as I have said, are not An appeal has been given from every yet ready for presentation. But I would magistrate to the High Court, and from say, in passing, that the question is the High Court a further appeal is given not one which is free from difficulty, to the Supreme Court of Cape Town. and I think that is fully recognised by For the life of me I do not see how we the honourable Member for Rushcliffe. could possibly imagine a system better When you say to a savage people, who calculated to secure the proper adininishave hitherto found their chief employ- tration of justice. I have got here some ment, occupation, and profit in war, practical instances of the way in which "You shall no longer go to war; tribal justice is administered which, I confess, war is forbidden," you have to bring I think are very remarkable, and, at all about some means by which they may events, speak well for the impartiality earn their living in place of it, and you of the judges. I say very remarkable, have to induce them, sooner or later, because we know that where you have a to adopt the ordinary methods of earning small white population in the midst of a livelihood by the sweat of their brow. an enormous black population there is But with a race of this kind I doubt a kind of prejudice, which sometimes leads to injustice, as against the native in favour of the white. Here are two cases of which a report has been sent to ne in a paper dated November, 1897. In he one case a white man was charged vith theft from a black man, the theft very much whether you can do it merely by preaching. I think that something in the nature of inducement, stimulus, or pressure is absolutely necessary if you are to secure a result which is desirable in the interests of humanity and civiliVOL. LVII. [FOURTH SERIES.] 2 B having taken place with some aggravating | are concerned, in favour of using and circumstances. The sentence was six continuing to use them as instruments years with hard labour. His Lordship which bridge over the period between Judge Vincent said— "It was such men as the accused who, going about in the guise of native commissioners, brought the officials of the Government into contempt with the natives." The other case is a charge of rape which was made against a white man, and in this case also the man was sentenced to hard labour for nine years. So long as convictions can be obtained, and sentences of that kind can be inflicted, I do not think there can be any serious charge against the administration of justice. the first acquisition of one of these possessions and its ultimate destination, either as a self-governing colony, or as a Crown colony under Imperial administration. Certainly, according to my experience, the results of Crown rule over a long period of years in colonies similarly situated are not so much better than those of a chartered company as to justify any strong comparison in their favour. What then is the reason for any change in the administration of this territory? Undoubtedly, it was proved to us by the experience of the raid that the Chartered Administration had insufficient control over their people; that they had used the resources of the ComTHE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE pany and of the territory for improper COLONIES: Yes; they in purposes, and it was absolutely necesNovember, 1897. It has also been sary, it was owed of course to the sursaid that the Civil Service of Rho- rounding States and it was owing to desia is inefficient. Are we not someourselves, that we should take steps to times a little unfair? Will not honour- make any repetition of that offence absoable Members drop out of sight alto-lutely and entirely impossible. I am also gether all question of whether it is a chartered company or not, remembering *MR. JOHN ELLIS: These were sen tences since Sir Richard Martin's Report? were that this is an administration in a new quite prepared to allow that in some respects the civil administration had broken down, although I have put forward reasons for believing that, after all, that might have been recovered without any great changes in the system, if the Chartered Company had had more time and more experience to deal with it. But country, which is half as large as Europe, with a sparse and scattered population, and that suddenly, in the course of a year or two, the whole framework of civil administration has had to be set up. When I think of what has been done, II admit that there are these undoubted am not so much surprised that here and there it has broken down, as I am that there has been any success at all. When I compare what has been done in Rhodesia with these imperfect means, and under these difficult circumstances, with a rebellion going on, with the rinderpest -the greatest plague that could afflict the country, desolating it and bringing starvation to the homes of the natives when I think of what has been done, in spite of all those obstacles and difficulties, I really think there is nothing in this which should justify the condemnation of the Chartered Company, or of its methods. Chartered companies are good deal out of fashion just now, but I am not quite certain whether, if if we argued the matter out impartially and quietly, we should not be, at all events so far as the majority of us Secretary of State for the Colonies. a to be mistakes on the part of the Chartered Government would be resented. But the | bility for anything that goes on in the scheme provides for a system of control council. He is there as the eyes and which, in spite of the criticism of the ears of the High Commissioner. He is right honourable Gentleman opposite, I there to express his objection to what is believe to be ample for the purposes we done if he does object. That is why have in view. Let us see what it is he speech will be useful to him. Having complains of. In the first place he goes expressed that objection, does the right to show that the company and the honourable Gentleman suggest that no administration of the Company will be attention will be paid to his complaints? Mr. Rhodes, that it will be a one-man Well, Sir, if no attention is paid to his concern, and that he will have as abso- complaints, he telegraphs at once to the lute and entire control of all the adminis- High Commissioner, the High Commistration in the future as, he says, he has sioner interferes, and he has the power had in the past. Let me say, in passing, of removing the whole of the council, and I assume that would be the same whether every official of the company. Through he were a director of the Company, or the High Commissioner and through the whether he were only the power behind Resident we have absolute power. We the throne. I do not think the mere fact have our fingers upon every act, great or that he assumes public responsibility by small, and the new council which is to becoming a director alters at all the be established, and that power it is amount of the indirect influence which intended to exercise whenever Imperial he, in many things, would have been able interests are concerned, or native inteto exercise. But I do not think that the rests are wrongly dealt with. But, says right honourable Gentleman has thought the right honourable Gentleman, why this matter out, because he made the should the Resident not communicate with extraordinary statement that Mr. Rhodes the minor officials of the company? Of would be Administrator, and at the same course, he is in direct communication time would have absolute control over the with the two administrators; why should board in London. Mr. Rhodes is not a bird, and cannot be in two places at once, and, if he is Administrator in Rhodesia, it is quite impossible that he should have this personal control over the proceedings of the board in London. There is no foundation for that state ment, and no truth in it whatever. The administrators of the company in the future will be two-one, Mr. Milton, and the other Captain Lawley; one established at Bulawayo, and the other at Salisbury. There will be a joint Executive Council, over which one of them will preside, and of which the new president is to be a member. Now, says the right honourable Gentleman, what a pitiful position the Resident Commissioner will be in, because he is there only to speak and not to vote. But we do not want him to vote. What advantage would it be to him to vote? The right honour able Gentleman seems to dissent, but if he will not interrupt me, I will show him what an advantage it is to speak. There would be no advantage whatever in the Resident having a vote, because, of course, he would be in a minority, and I do not want him to take that kind of responsi not he communicate with the minor who has ever had anything to do with a officials? Well, Sir, because anybody large concern would know that it would be absolutely destructive of all discipline, which would be absolutely impossible. and make a sort of dual administration, No, Sir, all that is meant by that provi the sion is that he should communicate over Well, now, to Sir, we consider, under these circum- | he is dangerous, or is his exclusion stances, that we shall be able to guarantee demanded because you want to punish to foreign States the due observance him? It must be either the one or the of all the obligations which Rhodesia other. If you say it is because he is may have towards them, and shall be able dangerous, I really do not agree with to protect native rights, and to see that you. I do not believe it. In the first no Imperial interest is at any time place, I think Mr. Rhodes' character is endangered. Well, then, Sir, I come to sufficiently understood. Mr. Rhodes has the only remaining point of any import-admitted, in the fullest possible terms, ance, as to which I admit I hardly that he has made a great mistake. I understand the line of argument taken do not think he is at all likely by the right honourable Gentleman and some other Members. The argument of the right honourable Gentleman is this: Granting that every security has been taken for Imperial interests, and granting that they are absolutely safe, still Mr. Rhodes must be excluded from any official position in the development of the country which he has secured to the British Crown, and in the administration of the company which he has founded. That is the position. We are not to take a negative part, but we must take a positive part, and exclude him and him alone. Apparently he is the one person who must not sit at this board, and the shareholders who have elected him unanimously, and found the money-for there is no doubt about that—almost entirely on the faith of his connection with the company, are to be overruled, and we are to take the responsibility of saying that they shall not have the directors they want, and, I suppose, that they shall have the directors which we like. That is a great responsibility. I cannot for the life of me see the difference between that and abolishing the charter, and taking full and absolute control of the whole business. The one principle that we have laid down for ourselves is that we would make ourselves secure as regards our own rights and interests, but that we would take no responsibility whatever as between the directors and the shareholders, or for any of the financial transactions of the company. From that we want to keep the Government officials entirely free. Of course, the proposal of the right honourable Gentleman would render that altogether impossible. Well, now, Sir, I ask why is this exceptional, this extraordinary position to be taken up? Because Mr. Rhodes was the author of the raid, and deceived his colleagues and the Government? But is his exclusion demanded because Secretary of State for the Colonies. repeat that mistake, or any mistake of the kind. In the second place, my contention is—and certainly the criticisms of the right honourable Gentleman have not shaken my opinion in the least-that, under the new system, it would be absolutely impossible for him to do any damage even if he wished. Well, then, Sir, the right honourable Gentleman talks a great deal about embittering racial animosities. I am as anxious as the right honourable Gentleman can possibly be to reunite the races, in so far as they are still separate, in South Africa, but I must say I cannot conceive any proposal less likely to attain that result than to put Mr. Rhodes into a special Index Expurgatorius. Why, Sir, what is Mr. Rhodes? Mr. Rhodes was Prime Minister at the Cape. Are you sure he will not be so again? I do not know. What would be your position if he were? Then, indeed, he would be in a position of great power and authority, and then, indeed, we could not control him as we can control the Chartered Company. Is Her Majesty to be advised by the Government of the day not to accept Mr. Rhodes as Prime Minister if a majority of a self-governing colony should elect him? I am speaking on pure hypothesis. I do not know whether such a thing is possible, but the cheer of the right honourable Gentleman opposite compels me to say that if the result of the recent elections is to be taken as an augury of the elections that are still to come, it will be a possibility, and that within a very few months. Of that there can absolutely be no doubt. Then, I want to know, what is the view of the right honourable Gentleman. Does he suggest that under these circumstances it would be the duty of the Government to advise Her Majesty not to receive Mr. Rhodes as Prime Minister of the Cape Colony? I cannot imagine that he would in these new regulations to secure the objects which we have said we had in view. It is not for the to prophesy what will be the future of this great territory which Mr. Rhodes has secured for us. I do not mean to boom it or to discredit it. I agree with those who think that its immediate prosperity, and the quickness with which the hopes of its promoters are realised, depends upon the discovery in large quantities of payable gold, and certainly I shall not offer any opinion upon that thorny and problematical subject. But of this I am confident, that whether there be gold there or not, there are still in the future great probabilities of success for this enormous territory. Sir, it is not like a great deal of the territory which we have in Africa. A great part of this territory, at all events, is territory in which Englishmen can live; and when I remember what the energy and enterprise and courage of Englishmen have done in places which, at first sight, appeared to be much more hopeless-in Australia, for instance, as to which five or six years ago the reports would have been much more unfavourable than they are now as to Rhodesia-I do not doubt for a moment that Rhodesia will yet be a very important part of the British Empire. And when that time comes it is evident that its prosperity shall always be connected with the name of the man who has secured it, who saw its possibilities, and who has staked his fortune and risked his life on the attempt to develop it. suggest anything of the kind. But, if you cannot interfere on any of these grounds with Mr. Rhodes' election as Prime Minister of Cape Colony, it surely is a very strong thing to say that you are to go out of your way to put this exclusion upon him in a case in which it is clearly not necessary for any Imperial interest or to prevent any Imperial danger. Well, Sir, I think myself that the Government would make a very great mistake if they appeared to take sides in what is a question of the utmost political importance in Cape Colony. The question between Mr. Hofmeyr on the one side, or President Kruger and the personality of Mr. Rhodes on the other-these are matters of tremendous interest in South Africa, and we, at all events, ought to avoid showing ourselves as partisans in such matters. But we should show ourselves partisans if we were to interfere with this company alone, and with the right of the shareholders to check Mr. Rhodes as a director of a concern which we have reduced from its original position to the position of a great commercial company. Now, Sir, the only other reason that could be given is that it is desirable to punish or humiliate Mr. Rhodes. I do not believe that the right honourable Gentleman entertains any feeling of that kind, and it has certainly been disclaimed by the honourable and learned Member for Dumfries. But, it seems to me, that it would be punishing the wrong person. If you say Mr. Rhodes shall not be a director, you are punishing the shareholders and relieving him from a great deal of responsibility, without taking from him any of his real power. If Mr. Rhodes is now, two and a half years after the raid, to be punished for his offence, or if there is anyone who thinks that he should be punished for his offence, all I say is that this is rather a belated time for putting forward that [Quorum formed, Debate resumed.] proposal. It should have been put *MR. JAMES L. WANKLYN (Bradford, forward when all those matters were Central): I was under the impression, much more fresh than they are now. was not put forward either by the Com-Sir, that at the close of last Session we mittee, or by the minority of one, which, had agreed to bury the hatchet on this made a separate report; and I can question in the interests of South Africa hardly believe under these circumstances and in the interests of the Empire. I that it is likely to be put forward by cannot but express my regret to-night anybody now. Well, Sir, I think I need that this question has been dug up by right not say more. We have done our best honourable Gentlemen and honourable It After the usual interval Mr. A. O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.) took the Chair. DR. TANNER (Cork, Mid): I beg to call your attention, Mr. O'Connor, to the fact that there are not 40 Members present. |