(Ireland) Bill. Amendment, which the Chief Secretary | whether the decision meant the whole has put down he and his legal advisers of the expense. or part of it; and to will do their best to make themselves this day there exist the widest differacquainted with the English decisions, as ences of practice. Only this morning I far as they touch the question in Ireland, was reading an account of what was done and will attempt to save the Irish county in the county of Derry. There they pay councils and urban district councils that one-half of the expense. In my own very long litigation which the English county. we pay the whole, whilst county councils have been subjected to others pay two-thirds and others threeby the clause which was inserted in Com- fourths. Then there is the point, where mittee in the English Act. The honour- the urban council has contracted a loan, able Member for South Dublin has placed as to whether the county council must an Amendment on the Paper, which he has repay the instalments. A decision has informed me he now intends to withdraw, been given on that point of law, and it which proposed to include the identical may be appealed against any day; but words which were in the English Act. at present the law is believed to be that I am very glad to hear that he intends the county council can be called upon to so doing, because it was upon these very repay the instalments of a loan from year words that this protracted and expensive to year. Then there is a question with litigation arose. In the first place, there regard to the interest on Loans, upon was a point as to whether a footway was which litigation is pending at this or was not part of the road. I do not moment. That is a very important point, mean an ordinary gravel footpath in regard to which thousands of pounds only, but a a pavement-even an as- are involved. Here, at last, I think the phalted pavement, or other pave- county council have got the best of it. ment of the most expensive kind. These are practical points. I do not want That was a matter in which thousands of to weary the Committee with repounds were involved. The whole ques- gard to them, but I hope I have tion of the entire paving of large towns shown the Committee that these through which main roads ran was in- are exceedingly important matters, volved, and the urban councils went to and that the Chief Secretary and law with the county councils upon the his colleagues will be doing a great serpoint as to whether the county councils vice to the county councils and the rateshould pay for the maintenance of such payers of Ireland generally. if they will paving, and beat them. I do not think it take these matters into their serious conwas at all understood in this House at sideration, with a view to seeing whether the time that that was going to be the the Irish ratepayers cannot be saved from law. That was the result of a test case, wasting enormous sums of money in which was taken up to the House of costly litigation, which has been the Lords, and decided as I have described; unfortunate lot of the county councils of but even when the highest court in the England. land had decided that the county councils were to maintain footways, whether of expensive stone or common gravel, other difficult points remained which have not yet been settled. I beg the Committee to understand that I only mention these things to show how important they are, and with a view to saving Irish county councils, if possible, from the enormous expense and worrying litigation to which the English county councils have been subjected. As I was saying, there still remained other points. After it was decided that the county councils were to bear the paving expenses, there remained unsettled the question as to Lord E. Fitzmaurice. This litigation has lasted now for a period of nine years, and is not yet concluded. My object in putting down an Amendment to the Amendment proposed by the honourable Member for South Dublin was because in his Amendment he followed the clause in the English Act word by word. Now, on the clause in the English Act, besides those I have mentioned, another very important point has been raised, which has never yet got into a court of law, but I hold in my hand a copy of counsel's opinion on the matter, and that opinion is the best that can be obtained. That question is this-and it would arise upon the very words that the honourable Member wished to introduce-if an urban council wishes to widen a street, and buys a house and land, and raises a loan for the sole purpose of that extension, can they not claim that extension as a matter of right as an improvement of the main road? The word "enlargement" is left out of the English Act. The county council has therefore refused to pay, and the best opinion that can be had is that the county council are right. The urban councils are very far from pleased with that opinion, and in all probability they will go to law upon the point. I trust that I have shown the Committee that these are important points of law which may involve the Irish county council in expensive litigation, and, what is worse, may lead to a great deal of ill-feeling and bad blood. I would therefore most strongly urge upon the Government that they should give their earnest attention to the points I have mentioned, and which I have only mentioned with a view of endeavouring to improve the Bill and render its working as smooth as possible. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I entirely appreciate the views which have been expressed by the noble Lord. But with regard to the question of throwing upon the county the whole of the charge of the main roads with which he began his speech, I would remind him that the circumstances in Ireland are not the same as they are in England and Scotland. The main roads in England and Scotland were invariably turnpike roads in the first instance. That system of turnpike roads has never been adopted in Ireland, and in this Bill we are simply proposing to maintain the existing system, under which part of the expense of maintaining these main roads is to be borne by the barony and the other part by the county council. There were reasons why we should not follow in the Irish Bill the precedent set in England and Scotland. Then as regards some of these legal points, I have had some of them before me. I know very well that there are difficult points involved, but under the provisions of our Bill these questions are hardly likely to arise, because the effect of the Amendment of which I have had copies handed round will be practically that the urban district councils will take over the whole management and maintenance of the roads. The question of pavement, the question of enlargement, the question of improvement are questions which I shall be prepared to consider. It appears to me that the easiest way of avoiding the expensive litigation referred to by the noble Lord. would be to make each urban council take over the roads which will be given to it by this Amendment, either upon terms agreed upon to the county council, or upon terms fixed by the Local Government Board. The urban district council will, as a matter of fact, now find it better to take over the improvement and enlargement of urban roads. *MR. LOUGH: It seems to me that it would be desirable if we could avoid some of the larger questions which have been raised, and also the question of towns, which has been referred to. My intention was only to refer to the roads in country districts in Ireland, and to suggest that it would be much more convenient if the cost of maintaining them were levied over the whole county, rather than that there should be an account as to each road between the urban district council and the county council. The only argument that the Chief Secretary has given to the Committee is that the case in Ireland is not exactly the same as it is in England, where the roads were turnpike roads. That argument only carries us a very short way. I should like the Chief Secretary to take into consideration the Irish circumstances, and if he does that I think he will see that there are a great many reasons for adopting the suggestion that no division of charges should take place. If my Amendment were adopted, it would require one or two subsequent Amendments. I think the Amendment which the right honourable Gentleman has suggested with regard to the towns rather supports my argument. He says that there is an advantage in allowing the urban districts to acquire the full control of the roads if they desire to do so. Very well, then, there is an exactly similar advantage in allowing the county council to have full control of the main roads in rural districts if they desire to do so. Rather than have a variety of authorities contesting as to what should be charged, and how it should be charged, I suggest that the full control should be given to rate. the county council, and that the county | divided manner, and with these divided council shall be obliged to levy a full accounts, and no complication has ever arisen, and there have been no disputes. I think it would be infinitely better and much less costly to allow the state of affairs which has gone on so long and sc well to continue. MR. G. BALFOUR: I suggest a division of charges. جملة I SIR T. ESMONDE: I rather agree with the honourable and gallant Member that our present system of divided accounts has worked well in the past, and I do not see why we should change it. *MR. TULLY: We have heard a great deal of the interests of townsmen and the interests of the countymen, but I know that whenever a town is cut off from the county the town takes care to make a very good bargain. I know of a case where a town cut itself out of a barony, and it has only to pay for four or five miles of road. The valuation of the town and barony is about £10,000, of which the barony is £6,000, but the barony has 20 to 30 miles of road to maintain at £6,000 compared with the four or five miles which the town has to maintain out of its £4,000. There is the case of Athlone, which got cut *MR. LOUGH: That is my point. think that this division of charges will be extremely inconvenient, because many difficult questions will arise which would be entirely avoided if the simple method were adopted of allowing the council to have full control. In the first place, there will be different calculations to how much should be paid between the district council and the county council of a particular district, and as to whether the county council is spending too much upon a particular road. I think that strife of this kind should be avoided, and it would be a great deal better that the whole matter should be left to the care of the county council. There is another point in connection with this matter which I would ask the Chief Secretary to consider, which appeals to me strongly. A road in a county may be of greater use to a district which it does not pass through than to some other dis-off from the county of Roscommon, and trict which it does pass through. Take the case of a road passing a quarry or a mine in a particular district, two miles from the main road, and the mineral has to be brought out on to the main road and carried a long way; supposing that the quarry happened to be in a different district from the one in which the main road lay. Now, that district would suffer a hardship, it would be paying half the cost of maintaining a road which mainly benefited a neighbouring district which was not obliged to contribute. There you would have a bone of contention thrust upon the county. I do not think that the Chief Secretary has given a single argument as to why we should not adopt the simple expedient of having only one authority in the matter, and thus avoid all divisions and complications. I am sure he intends giving the matter every consideration, but the Bill would be greatly simplified if provision were made to bring the law in Ireland into line with the law in England. COLONEL WARING: I think we might let this matter remain as it is. For the last 60 years we have been carrying on the business of the Committee in this Mr. Lough. by so doing put up the rates of the county by a penny or twopence in the pound. It was obliged by this House to make a contribution of £100 a year towards the county rates. I think there is a great deal to be said in the case of a poor peasant who lives on the mountain side, who keeps, perhaps, a donkey, a cow, and a pig, and who has to pay for the upkeep of the roads used by the rich people of the towns, and in some cases roads over which traction engines go, which do not benefit him one bit. I think there should be some understanding as to what the effect of the Bill will be as regards the urban sanitary authorities. The Chief Secretary said that a number of the urban sanitary authorities would proceed immediately to maintain the roads inside their township. That would be a very good bargain for the towns, but I should like to know how it will affect the countrymen? MR. P. A. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.): I should like to ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary, or the Attorney General, how this clause will affect a town situated as Sligo is situated. Sligo passed in this the parts of the county more prosperous -the House in 1869 a local Act, called the | is this: Sligo Borough Improvement Act, under which are the provisions of which it was agreed that more level parts of the county-are Sligo should be liable for a certain pro- served by railways. The main roads portion of the county-at-large charges. are of smaller importance, and are That proportion was not a definite pro- much less used for through traffic from portion, it was a variable proportion, other districts. In the poorer parts, the varying according to the valuation of the more mountainous parts, especially in county and the borough. At the present Ulster, there are main roads of the very time in the borough of Sligo we are greatest importance in the whole county, maintaining all our roads. We have our and these roads run through poor places, own surveyor, we pay all our officers, and, and they are maintained now half at the notwithstanding that fact, we are now expense of the district, although they are obliged, under the provisions of the Act in all essential particulars of much wider I have mentioned, to pay a certain pro- importance. I think it would be a most portion of the county-at-large charges. desirable thing to spread the cost of the I think that the terms contained in the charges for the maintenance of these Act of 1869 were agreed to by the roads over the county at large, as has representatives of the borough because been done in Scotland and England. I it was necessary to do something to do not think that some of the quesinduce the grand jury to allow the Act to tions referred to by the noble Lord will pass. We think that, while we are main- arise under this Bill. He is, perhaps, taining all our roads, and paying all our aware that the system in Ireland is officers, we should not be called upon entirely different to what it is in Engto pay for the county roads, whether land and Scotland. In England what main roads or not. I should like, before happens is, that in most counties the this Amendment is disposed of, to hear main roads, if paid for by the county, are from the Chief Secretary or the Attorney repaired yearly by contract by the disGeneral in what position Sligo will find trict authorities; in Ireland every road itself when this clause is in operation. will be maintained by the county, and the only question is as to who shall pay MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am afraid, Mr. Lowther, that this discussion is drifting into a very desultory one, and I hope that the discussion will endeavour to confine itself to the particular Amendment before us. In answer to the honourable Member who has just spoken, I think he is not aware that certain Amendments have been put down to Clause 22. If Sligo has made such an arrangement as he informs us, that arrangement will be preserved in its entirety. MR. KNOX: I venture to support this Amendment on its merits. The honour able and gallant Member opposite thought it better that things should remain as they were, better altogether from the question as between county and town, and looking only at the rural area, without taking the town into account. But I think there is a strong case for spreading the whole cost of the principal roads of the county over the county at large. I think, if the honourable Member will consider the circumstances of Ireland, the case must inevitably appear much stronger. What happens in the counties for it. : *LORD E. FITZMAURICE I only alluded to the urban councils. MR. KNOX: The questions are somewhat different, though I admit that there are many points in which there has been a good deal of litigation under the English Act which we should do well to pay attention to. The offer made by the Chief Secretary that the charge for the widening of the road should be taken as part of the maintenance is a valuable suggestion, which hope he will see his way in carrying out. Then, when you come to the question between the rural and urban districts, there are in Ireland a number of local Acts under which the various local authorities have each made their own particular bargain. In some local authority has made a good bargain, whilst in others it has made a bad bargain for itself owing to the changes which have been brought about. Sometimes a town has gone down, whilst others have increased beyond all expectation. cases a I do think now that there is very strong case for revising all those cases, not by a Provisional Order, but by widening and extending the powers of adjustment upon a broader basis of equity by this Bill as it stands. I do not know how far the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary will see his way to deal with the question, but I do think there is very strong ground for revising all these local Acts on the broad ground of equity, if not of law. I imagine that the chief object of the Committee will be to see that the urban districts shall neither gain nor lose anything by this Bill. Now, I think that a very much wider principle ought to be adopted, and that a new and fair adjustment ought to be made. It is absurd to pay such reverence and respect to arrangements made in such a way as these were. I therefore hope that the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary, if he cannot see his way to accept the Amendment of my honourable Friend, will see his way to consider this point, and say whether there is not a good deal to be said in favour of it when we get to the same stage in the Bill upon the Report. Upon the question of the towns, I venture to suggest to the right honourable Gentleman that the best way to deal with the matter is to leave the towns altogether outside, and to enforce some sort of reasonable contribution from them. MR. T. HEALY: The honourable Gentleman should remember that under the Act of 1871, as I understand, there was power to absolutely sever the towns from the counties, and in the case of Wexford the borough of Wexford was absolutely divorced from the county of Wexford, and the borough is responsible for no county at large" rates. That was the situation in 1871, and so it remained until 1878, when you repealed what you had done in 1871, which was in itself a retrograde movement. Now, what I do press upon the Government is this in my opinion there should be some sort of elastic clause which would not bind the county in a cast-iron way for all time. You must remember before this Bill is passed that if we pass this Measure we shall be another 60 years, if we should be unhappily tied to this Mr. Knox. a | Parliament, before this matter will again come up for consideration. It is rather a strong measure to pass a Bill like this, and make no inquiry as to the administration and order. The question of responsibility changes so, and it is one that from time to time ought to be recognised, and it is positively absurd for the honourable Gentleman to say we have had no trouble for 60 years, and, therefore, let these things go on as before. The people have not been heard because they had no voice; they were gagged by the grand juries. It seems to me that there ought to be some elastic clause to deal with these matters, some power to change them, and we ought not to be bound in this rigid manner. *MR. LOUGH: I would ask the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary to consider this matter a little further; I. myself, attach a great deal of importance to it. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am bound to say that my own judgment is against this Amendment. The Amendment was, by leave, withdrawn. MR. T. M. HEALY moved upon Clause 8, page 4, line 4, after "barony" insert "or urban district." This is a point which the Government propose to meet by their own Clause 22. The Bill provides, every road the maintenance of which at the passing of this Act is levied partly off the county at large and partly off any barony," but it does not touch the towns at all. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I should suggest, as an Amendment, to leave out partly off any barony" if the honourable Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment. The Amendment was, by leave, withdrawn. MR. M. HEALY moved upon Clause page 4, line 5, to leave out "until it ceases so to be as hereinafter provided." I have moved this Amendment because I consider the proportion of main roads is absurdly small if you consider the mileage throughout the country, and I do not think in this Bill we ought to do anything to assist the county councils to diminish them. Now, I have taken |