see

how

*THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS: The Amendment is: "Clause 8, page 4, line 5, leave out until it ceases to be as hereinafter provided.""

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The effect

of that will be to place upon the county
councils the principle-"Once a main road
I doubt whether
always main road."
that is advisable, because the changes
with regard to railway accommodation
have been so great that. what at one
time was a very important main road, is
not now of any importance whatever, and
I think it should, under such circum-
stances, be reduced to the position of a
district road.

the trouble to obtain the figures with, main roads is reduced to such an extent regard to the county of Cork, and I find that it must be practically impossible to from them that there are some 5,000 cut off a single mile further from them; miles of roads in that county, and of but I certainly do think that it ought that 5,000 miles only 200 are county at not to be put in the power of the county large roads. That has arisen by the councils to do so. My Amendment is to system of dealing with the matter as a secure that any road which is now a question of mail roads under the Grand main road should continue, under the Juries Act. Before the Grand Juries Act new order of things, to be a main road, was passed I have no doubt that the and that it should not be struck off the proportion of mail roads to the urban list and reduced to the status of an urban roads was very much greater, and there road. are many which ought to so exist now which were urban roads, but made continuations of the mail roads by the mails being carried over them. But with the introduction of railways the result has been that as the railways were extended and the mails came to be carried by them, mile after mile of the old mail roads were struck off and reduced to the status of urban roads. In Ireland now the proportion of mail or main roads is absolutely absurd. If you take a map of the county of Cork, and consider the number of towns, and then consider the number of roads between those towns which should all be in the nature of main roads, you will absurd it is. There is not MR. VESEY KNOX: I venture to put than 10 per cent.-not more than this to the right honourable Gentleman 5 per cent. of the mileage of the the Chief Secretary. I believe, in the roads which are at present main roads. north of Ireland generally, it is of vital Now what I object to is, that when we importance, and especially in those countransfer the jurisdiction from the grand ties where the greater part of the disjuries to the county the county councils, the trict is well-to-do, and the part which is county councils shall have power to not. is a minority having different views. strike off the list as they please any of With regard to county Down, I know those roads which are now main roads. that in that county there are a conI think their power ought to be in an siderable number of roads, particularly entirely different direction. The more in the south part of the county, which main roads you have in a country the now come under this provision. Now I better it is for the people. We are by feel morally certain that when the county this Bill getting rid of the absurd prin- council of county Down come to map ciple of district rating, the result of out the county again they will say that which is to make the poorer district bear certain part of the county have got more the whole burden of its own poverty, main roads than another part; there are instead of getting assistance, as they too many, and we must cut off so much should have done; we are now getting and throw them upon the district; and, rid of that absurd principle, and shall although I do not say so, it may very obtain that assistance from the richer well be that one of the reasons why they districts, and, that being so, my opinion will do so is because that part of the as to these main roads is that it ought county is very differently situated from not to be put into the power of the other parts which are much richer. I county councils to decrease the mileage say that there would be in those parts of the main roads as they at present of the north of Ireland, where the people exist. In my opinion, the state of things of the older race have been driven into the at present is such that the mileage of mountainous districts, a great danger of

more

be

such action being taken by the county | Members for Londonderry City and Cork councils, which will, perhaps, take a City, but I regret that upon this Amendbroader view than the grand juries. ment it is not in my power to agree Now one of the places I allude to is in with them. I think it would the lower part of the county, where there extremely unfortunate to stereotype, as are very few railways, and where, of a it were, every main road in Ireland. It necessity, the mails are carried by road, appears to be feared that there will be and if the provision is not made by the some abuses of their powers by the insertion of these words which my county councils, but I do not at all honourable Friend wishes to insert, it apprehend anything of the sort. But, will be in the power of the county coun- even if there be such a fear, I think cil of county Down to close the roads to that this Bill will be fully and sufficiently the poor people in the mountainous dis- guarded by the powers given under it tricts in the southern part of the county, to the district councils. I see that Suband I am sure that that was never section 5 gives the right of appeal to intended. I do not think the right the districts, and I think that is a honourable Gentleman the Chief Secre- sufficient protection. tary intends that to be the effect of his Bill.

MR. H. C. PLUNKETT (Dublin County, S.) It seems to me that the point of

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: They can view put before the Committee by the appeal.

am quite

honourable Member for Londonderry as to the tourist traffic in Ireland rather MR. VESEY KNOX: I tells against him. It appears to me that, aware that the people will have if he desires to have new roads made in a right of appeal, but then money Ireland, it would be very unwise indeed is not always ready at hand for to establish such a principle as―" Once a that purpose; and then, again, the main road always a main road." In my appeal must be by the district council, opinion. the right honourable Gentleman and the district council does not always the Chief Secretary is quite right in not represent every part of the district which laying down an unalterable principle at is suffering. There is a very important this time, when we all know that a comquestion, too, from another point of plete revolution in the method of locoview-from the point of view of the motion upon the highways by motor-cars, tourist traffic in Ireland. I believe etc., may be expected to take place at honourable Members on both sides of the a very early date. Therefore. I think House are anxious to develop in every it is very wise to leave the county possible manner the tourist traffic in councils a large discretion in this matter Ireland; and from that point of view to deal with the roads as altered circumalone it is extremely important that we stances may render necessary. should have as many main roads as possible, because we may naturally expect that there will be more expenditure in that direction than in any other; therefore I entirely agree with the Amend ment which my honourable Friend proposes. I believe it is perfectly true that, as in England, the county council will not be able to get rid of a main road without the consent of the district council. I know that that is so in England, because I know the London County Council is extremely anxious to get rid of some of their main roads, but, owing to the district council withholding their consent, they are unable to do so.

*MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL: I generally agree with my honourable Friends the Mr. Vesey Knox.

SIR T. G. ESMONDE: I think I should be very strongly opposed to any interference of any kind with the powers of the county councils in this matter. think they ought to be left to say what will be main roads and what will not.

*MR. TULLY: I think it would be the power. I know something about the expedient if the county councils had not roads of Ireland; and I know some of the mail roads are not generally used. In the county of Roscommon, for in

stance, where the coal mines have

recently been re-opened, the roads leading to them are not generally used; the district is a very poor one, and the taxes there are very heavy. I think this is

removal of obstructions. The question was recently raised with reference to a navigation trackway bordering the river Suir. The police commenced a prosecution on the subject, and attempted to remove an obstruction, and they were successful in so far that the magistrates convicted; but upon an application for a writ of certiorari, the Court of Queen's Bench decided that the magistrates had no jurisdiction in the matter. Therefore this matter with regard to the navigation trackways is a matter of great importance, and I think they should be declared to be public, at the least, roads.

a useful provision in this Bill if that jurisdiction would be given under power should be given. The county the ordinary law of the country for the councils should not have the power to say what a road should be. *MR. J. HERBERT ROBERTSON (Hackney, S.): I am in sympathy with the honourable Member for Cork on this Amendment. We have not got the trouble in the south-east which they have around Londonderry, but we have some country districts which are sparsely populated. I see the force of what the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary says -that the county councils must have some power to make existing main roads cease to be main roads; but observe what this clause says, and what is provides: "That any road not mentioned in such declaration shall cease to be a main road." It appears to me that this clause is altogether wrongly framed. The roads appear to have to be made main roads by the county council. They ought to be left main roads unless the county councils specifically declare that they shall not be so. Instead of the county councils having first to say they shall be main roads, they ought to be left main roads until the county councils should determine the contrary.

MR. M. HEALY: My Amendment was simply to prevent the total cost of the roads, which hitherto has been charged upon the county, being thrown upon the districts. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment by leave withdrawn.
Amendment proposed-

"Page 4, line 8, that after 'roads' should
be inserted 'or navigation trackways.'
(Mr. J. J. Shee.)

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: With regard to the difficulty which has just been placed before the Committee, it has not been, so far as I am aware, considered by the Government; but I do not think the honourable Member's Amendment would be a good way of accomplishing the object the honourable Gentleman has in view. I am quite ready to consider whether it is not desirable to insert words in the Bill which will give such powers over the navigation trackways as are desired.

MR. T. HEALY: I think it is only right to say, with regard to this prosecution, that, as it was solely a prosecution for the benefit of the whole of the people of the country, it is, in my opinion, a very great pity that it was not upheld by the Attorney General.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR expressed his willingness to consider whether it was not desirable to insert words in the Bill. giving such powers over the navigation trackways as might be desired.

MR. M. HEALY moved to insert in

*MR. J. J. SHEE (Waterford, W.): Let me, in putting this Amendment, call the attention of the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary the third sub-section, after the provision to the question of the navigation giving power to the county council to trackways in Ireland, to which no make a general declaration defining the reference whatever is made in this Bill. I particular roads in the county which shall desire to call the attention of the Govern- be main roads, a stipulation that the ment to this question of navigation trackprovisional ways, in respect to which certain diffi culties have arisen. There is no means under the Legislature at present to have obstructions to navigation trackways removed. If they were declared to be public roads even, and not main roads,

declaration shall be a
declaration.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR said that the suggestion was decidedly an improvement on the procedure proposed by the Bill, and would tend to prevent any possible friction between county councils

and district councils. It would be best, | However, I am willing to accept the however, to insert the proposal as a new Amendment if the honourable Member sub-section at the end of sub-section 4 of omits the words at the end, "by includthe clause. ing in it any additional roads," and substitute either by way of exclusion or inclusion of roads."

to insert the words, after line 33, "This, appended to it, " any later date fixed by the sub-section shall apply to so much of Local Government Board on an appeal," any mail or other road as is situate within for it is just possible that there might be an urban county district." I move that a later period running not actually from Amendment because I admit that there the date when the declaration was made. is some obscurity in the clause as already I hope the honourable Member will accept passed as to whether it does or does not such a proviso. apply.

'Or at any later date which may be fixed by the Local Government Board on an appeal."

MR. MAURICE HEALY: I accept that arrangement, and, under the circumstances, withdraw the Amendment. Agreed to.

As to Clause 8, page 4, line 33, at end, MR. T. J. CONDON (Tipperary, E.), had given notice of the following Amendment

"Any declaration or declarations made under the provisions of this section shall not increase the incidence of any charge in any urban district for which provision was otherwise made My by law and in force at the passing of this Act." He said: I understand that this Amendment has already been covered by one accepted by the Government, and I therefore, beg to withdraw it.