ÆäÀÌÁö À̹ÌÁö
PDF
ePub
[blocks in formation]

Question proposed

That the clause stand part of the Bill."

MR. TULLY: I rise, Sir, to urge

one

that the Government should take into consideration the question of allowing county councils, if they think fit, when a vacancy occurs in the office of coroner for any district or county, to refuse to appoint any person to the office, which office should thereupon cease to exist. The clause as drawn by the Government makes it compulsory on the county council to elect a coroner for every existing district in Ireland. I think power should be given to county councils to amalgamate districts where coroner could easily do the work of the two. There are a great deal too many coroners in Ireland for the work there is to do: In West Meath the work is done by one coroner. In Longford, the adjoining county, which is smaller, two coroners are appointed. In the case of Longford and West Meath power should be given to amalgamate. You adopt this principle in the case of your resident magistrates; you do not confine them to one county. I should like to have an expression of opinion from the right honourable Gentleman as to whether, on Report, the Government will introduce words to give power to the county councils, where they think they could wisely amalgamate districts, or, where two counties could be amalgamated, to appoint one coroner to do the work.

Mr. Jordan.

[blocks in formation]

MR. ATKINSON agreed that there would be nothing to prevent this course being adopted, but thought that in most cases the district would be too large.

MR. DILLON: I do not think the

amalgamation of two counties would effect any saving of money, because the salary of the coroners is to be calculated in proportion to the amount of work to be done. It is plain that if one man undertook to do the work of two counties he would charge in proportion. The rate would necessarily not get their work payers would have to pay the same, and

done so well. Under this clause the county councils have power to alter and consolidate districts within the county, and I do not see the slightest use of going beyond that.

MR. M. HEALY asked what the right honourable Gentleman proposed to do in the case of Galway, which would not come under the Bill, and whose position with regard to the appointment of the coroner was unique.

MR. ATKINSON said the matter would be considered.

[merged small][ocr errors][merged small][merged small][merged small][merged small]

county council. As I understand, it is | He said his constituents felt rather proposed to wholly exclude boroughs from strongly on this matter. He would not, the operation of by-laws made by the however, press his Amendment, as he county council. The reason for that, I was sure, if there was any doubt on the take it, is that boroughs have themselves point, that the Government would clear power to make by-laws. But there are it up between now and the Report stage. other cases in Ireland where the power of making by-laws exists. Urban sanitary districts have power to make bylaws, and the power obtains in certain towns. I do not think two authorities should exist in a county, each capable of making by-laws, with the danger that the by-laws might conflict. I do not wish to press the Amendment. I am not sure that it is necessary, but I should like the Government to consider the matter.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Boroughs have more extensive powers of making by-laws than exist in urban districts. I do not think that there is any serious danger of a conflict between one local authority and another. Not only is the power in urban districts, other than boroughs, of making by-laws much more limited, but the Local Government Board would, before sanctioning those by-laws, consider whether they would conflict with any existing by-laws. Any difficulty could be easily settled by the Local Government Board.

MR. M. HEALY said he had no strong opinion on the matter. He did not wish to do more than draw the attention of the Government to it. If they were satisfied that no inconvenience would arise he would not press his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. PLUNKETT (Dublin Co., S.) had the following Amendment standing in his

name:

MR. TULLY : I wish to inquire whether this power of making by-laws extends to cases of extraordinary traffic on roads. In England, if a man starts a traction engine on a road, the ratepayers make the owner of the traction engine contribute towards the maintenance of the road.

The law is altogether different in Ireland. I think this is a point worth

consideration. The Irish law should in such matters be assimilated to the English.

MR. M. HEALY: I say that I am aware of a recent case in county Cork where a road has had to be thrown ou of repair in consequence of the heavy traffic, traction engine traffic, etc., and the local authority could not point to any authority for the use of it. That road, at any rate, it is impossible to keep in repair, because it would cost so much to do so. It would cost £400 a year to keep two miles of road in repair, and the local authority had to throw it out of repair because they could not keep it in order. I ask, is there a general power under the Act to deal with a specific case of this sort, to cover the case of traction engines? Would it be competent for county councils to make by-laws to deal with those matters? The danger which is apparent to my mind is this, that this power is so very general that it is difficult to say what the county councils will be able to do and what they will not be able to do. I would much prefer in a matter of this kind that a series of definite powers should be put into this Bill to cover the points which must necessarily arise.

MR. DILLON: This is a very important point, and I should like to know whether this is the same clause as was

(3) Provided, further, that all by-laws, orders, and regulations of any authority whose powers and duties are transferred by this Act to any urban district council as are in force at the time of the transfer shall, so far as they relate to or are in pursuance of the powers and duties transferred, continue in force as if made by that council, and may be revoked or altered accordingly; and provided, also, that nothing in this section contained given to the county councils of England. shall affect the power of such urban district | As a matter of fact, there is at present council under any enactment or otherwise of making by-laws, orders, and regulations for a case before the Lord Chief Justice and the good government of its own district." five judges upon the question of a by-law

an

made by the county council of Kent in it could be well dealt with by such a which it was alleged there was course. If dealt with at all, it should be infringement of Magna Charta in one by a separate clause. of their by-laws. I am not sure that the

case will not come before the Court of Appeal. If this power gives the county councils power to make by-laws I think it is a very wide clause indeed.

*LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE (Wilts, Cricklade): Perhaps I may be permitted to say one word upon this subject, because the question of by-laws is a very important one, and, as the honourable Member who has just preceded me has pointed out, has been before the Courts of Law and Parlia ment. The power of making by-laws by the English county councils was given by section 16, which incorporates the Municipal and the Public Health Acts; but the English county councils have powers in addition to those which they inherited from the old Quarter Sessions in regard to certain matters relating to roads, etc., which, no doubt, have given the county councils equal jurisdiction; and although I think the right honourable Gentleman the Attorney General is quite accurate when he says the words

the Municipal (Irish) Act and the

Public Health Acts are sufficient to meet this point, some of those relating to extraordinary traffic, no doubt, are not actually covered by this section, and it might be desirable upon the Report stage to insert words to show clearly that the Irish county councils should have the same powers as the English county councils have under the old Highways Act of 1878.

MR. KNOX: I do not think this question of extraordinary traffic is a matter for a by-law at all. In England it is dealt with by a section of the General Highways Act, which gives the power to make a levy upon the owners of heavy vehicles-such as the contractor who damages the road by his extraordinary traffic-for the cost of repairing the road. It does not matter very much how you give the power, so long as it is given, but it is clear that the remedy is not by way of penalty. I think the matter is one for the consideration of the Government; but it is one which should not, in my opinion, be dealt with by means of a by-law, and I do not think Mr. Dillon.

MR. ATKINSON: Let us see what this section says. It is not possible to have more general words than

"The county councils shall have the samepower to make by-laws for their counties as the council of a borough have." MR. M. HEALY: Will the right. honourable Gentleman consider before the Report stage the advisability of giving the local authorities a specific power in this matter?

MR. ATKINSON: It is a very wide section, and deals with it generally.

MR. TULLY: As I was one of the Committee upstairs which considered and about it. There is in the English Act. dealt with this point, I know something a power of dealing with heavy vehicular traffic, and I think we should have a traction engines and heavy traffic; and similar power in Ireland to deal with I ask the right honourable Gentleman to consider the case of extraordinary traffic when we reach the Report stage

of the Bill.

Question put

“That Clause 14 stand part of the BillTM Clause agreed to.

CLAUSE 15.

Amendment moved―

"Page 7, line 22, after 'of,' insert 'promoting and.""-(Lord Fitzmaurice.)

*LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Upon this I wish to move the Amendment which appears upon the Paper in my name, which, by a mistake upon my part, was inserted in a wrong place. It is an Amendment to give the county councils the power, not only to oppose legislation, but also to promote it where they think it is necessary. I move the Amendment for two reasons, the first of which is strictly germane to this Bill, because I think it is rather absurd to call into existence important bodies like

the county councils, and to give them, no doubt, extended powers, and at the same time appear to show distrust in them by denying them an important power like this a power which is given to every municipality in England, bodies some of which may become subservient rather than superior to the county councils themselves. My second reason for moving this Amendment is that there is a very strong feeling in England upon this subject, and I should not

like at some future time to have an objection raised, as it might be, to a Bill brought into this House-it has already been introduced proposed to give this power to the English county

councils that I had remained silent on

the subject now. I venture to urge it upon the Chief Secretary, because, practically, the proposal to give this power to the English county councils is a proposal which is put forward by friends of his own-the two honourable Members representing Middlesex-in this House. Before 1878 there was nothing to debar justices in quarter sessions from promoting legislation in Parliament, and under the Municipal Act the corporations of England have power to promote legislation, subject to certain restrictions laid down in the Act, and if the Amendment I move is accepted, it will give the same power to Ireland, subject to the same restrictions. The London County Council have practically the same power without limit, and the Local Government Act of 1888 duly gives power to oppose Bills. The same course is pursued in this Bill. "Therefore, I have ventured to put down this Amendment, in the hope that some protest may be raised. Of course, whether I proceed to a Division on this question depends upon the support I receive from the Irish Members. If my Amendment is carried, the day may not be far distant when the powers proposed to be given to county councils in Ireland under this Bill will be conferred on county councils in England. I certainly say, without hesitation, that the denial of these powers to English county councils is objectionable.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I hope my noble Friend will not press this Amendment. I do not in the least wish to prejudge a question on which there is much divergence of opinion. No doubt the noble Lord is right in saying that many English councils would like to have this power, and it might be desirable that they and the English councils should have it. But it is a very debateable subject, and if the powers were granted Parliament would have to consider the precise way in which it should be exercised. The Committee have a long and elaborate Bill to deal with already. I would sug gest that we should content ourselves at present with assimilating the system of local government in Ireland to that of England, and defer the extension of the powers of county councils at present.

MR. CHANNING supported the Amendment, as a protest against the denial of the powers of promoting legislation to English county councils, the position of which he thought was very unsatisfactory at present.

The Amendment was negatived.

[blocks in formation]

CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork, E.) hoped that the right honourable Gentleman in charge of this Bill would accept the In the County Amendment he had to propose, because

Councils Association there is an almost

it would be admitted that there were

unanimous feeling that county councils few industries in Ireland which were more

ought to be trusted with these powers.

important than the fishing industry, or

more in need of development. He was not equally sure that the right honourable Gentleman would agree with him in thinking that no board in Ireland was more in need of reform than the Fishery Board, but he would endeavour to convince the Chief Secretary on that point by mentioning a concrete case. He would refer to the composition of the Board of Fishery conservators in his own constituency-the Board of Conservators for the River Blackwater. At first sight the composition of this board might appear to be fair enough, because six of the elected Conservators were allocated to the fresh water division, and six to the tidal division respectively. The tidal division, however, contributed two-thirds of the revenue. There were in addition other Conservators. Every owner of a private or separate fishery in the fresh water division, valued at £100 a year, was entitled to a seat on the board, of whom there were nine in the fresh water division, and there was also entitled to a seat upon that board every magis

trate who owned as much as a cottage garden abutting either on the river or on its tributaries, provided he paid an annual rod licence of £1. As there were some 40 gentlemen in that fortunate position, the fresh water division was represented on the board by some 50 available members, as compared with the half dozen elected Conservators who represented the whole tidal portion of the river. He need not say that from a public point of view that was its most important portion, for it included the harbour of Youghal, and a very long stretch of seacoast. Although that district was represented by only six members, as compared with 50 for the upper portion, it provided the means of support for the crews of 142 fishing boats, who were entirely dependent upon the fishery in the tidal portion of the Blackwater for the support of themselves and their families. He ventured to think that this analysis of the composition of the board revealed a very unsatisfactory state of affairs, and he also thought that under such 8 system the interests could not be properly protected. As Я matter of fact, in regard to salmon, the fishery in the Blackwater had been deteriorating from year to year under this system, and he sincerely trusted, thereCaptain Donelan.

fore, that the Chief Secretary would realise the importance of this matter, and would see his way to accept this Amendment.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR said the Government could not accept this Amend ment. The constitution of the fishery boards in some places might be as unsatisfactory as the honourable Member had indicated, but he undertook to say that under the proposal of the honourable Member the position of the fishery boards would be far more unsatisfactory than it is at present. The honourable Member proposed that the fishery boards in future should consist of committees appointed by the county councils, but he had not even provided that the county councils should subscribe towards the expenses. The Government had themselves placed upon the Paper an Amendment dealing with this matter. It was in the form of a new clause, in which they proposed that the county council of any county district, comprising the whole or part of a fishing district under the Fisheries (Ireland) Act, 1848, might make towards the expenses of the Board of Conservators of such fishery district a contribution not exceeding in any one local financial year a sum equal to the rate of a halfpenny in the £ on the rateable value of the county district at the beginning of the year; and that on making such a contribution they would be entitled to such a number of repre sentatives on the board as the Lord Lieutenant might appoint. That, he thought, was quite as far as it would be possible for them to go.

MR. M. HEALY desired to ask the

right honourable Gentleman whether, under the clause as it stood, it would be possible for a Board of Conservators, if they so desired, to transfer their powers to a county council.

MR. GERALD BALFOUR said that point would be provided for.

MR. M. HEALY said he did not, in view of the Chief Secretary's statement, understand a passage in the General Order in Council.

« ÀÌÀü°è¼Ó »