MR. ATKINSON reminded the honour- by sport, and the other the industrial able Member that some fishery districts interest. The idle interest, I find, have extended over portions of two or three 50 members on this board, while the counties, and in such cases, he pointed industrial interest, employing a large out, it would be impossible to transfer number of men who have to work for the powers of a fishery board to one par- their living, unlike Irish landlords, who ticular county council. do not work at all, are represented by six members on this board. I think the artisans who work for their living in tidal waters, and the interests that they represent, should have a larger representation on this board. In the matter of SIR R. PENROSE FITZGERALD (Cambridge) trusted that they were not about to enter upon the vexed question of the salmon fishery in Ireland in connection with this clause of the Bill, and he thought that, perhaps, under the circumstances, the honourable Member would be wise to withdraw his Amendment, in view of that to which the Chief Secretary had referred, and which the Government intended subsequently together the claim of the Irish landlord propose, instead of attempting to go into very difficult and intricate questions connected with the salmon fishery. MR. KNOX (Londonderry) urged that it was undesirable to add to the number of the conservancy boards, many of which were already of an unwieldy size. In the north of Ireland they had not only to deal with questions as between sea fisheries and fresh water fisheries, but they also had to face the questions of mills and flax put into the rivers, which rendered the problem much more complicated. DR. TANNER (Cork Co., Mid) as one who had been for a number of years a Conservator of fisheries, endorsed what had fallen from the honourable Member for East Cork, whose remarks as to the Blackwater would apply also to the fisheries on the River Lea. He was very glad that his honourable Friend had brought it forward. He had brought it forward in a moderate and timely way, and he hoped in a way which would commend itself to the Committee. MR. DAVITT: My honourable Friend raises a very important issue by this Amendment, and I do not think that it has been met in а satisfactory manner by the proposal of the Chief Secretary. There are two interests represented in connection with the fisheries; one the idle interest, who live fishing in Ireland, my sympathy always goes with the poacher. He represents the natural right of the individual, and I am sorry I have not time to put down an Amendment in favour of protecting the rights of the poacher. I deny alto that they have a superior right to the fish in the river and the birds in the air, and all the rest of it. I hope my honourable Friend will stand out for more concession on this subject from the Chief Secretary for Ireland. CAPTAIN DONELAN said that although he deeply regretted the decision arrived at by the Gentleman in charge of the Bill, it rather surprised him, because he certainly did give him to understand, in answer to a question of his, that it would have his consideration. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I do not think I altogether said that. CAPTAIN DONELAN: You said it was a matter for consideration in Committee. Amendment withdrawn. Amendment proposed "Page 8, line 11, after 'committee,' add be determined in case of dispute by the Lord "With a representation of each council to Lieutenant." Mr. Serjeant Hemphill.) Amendment agreed to. In reply to Mr. M. HEALY and Mr. FLAVIN MR. GERALD BALFOUR said it was the intention that there should be transferred to county councils the powers exercised by town commissioners under the Towns Improvement Act, and he would be willing to report to insert an Amendment exempting these. The words followed the language of the English Act, and he had in his mind drainage boards, particularly those whose powers might, with consent, be transferred to the county councils. MR. M. HEALY: I admit that this is, after all, a small question. I put down the Amendment with the object of remedying certain anomalies in the franchise, and I am sorry that the right honourable Gentleman does not see his way to accept it. I do not share the view of the right honourable Gentleman that my proposal would involve additional expense. It is not really the additional list that involves so much expense; it is the inclusion of that list afterwards into the register, involving a complete re-casting of the register, that expense. The register must be either alphabetical, or according to streets. it is alphabetical, you cannot very well have a Supplementary List; you must put these names into the body of the register. If the register is according to streets, the same thing will happen. However, as I say, I do not think this matter is of any great importance, and I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. causes Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. If full effect, and in particular for making the triennial election of councillors coincide with the triennial election of aldermen."—Mr. Gerald Balfour.) MR. M. HEALY: I confess that I do not think that this is a good Amendment, or one that will in any way improve the Bill, and I hope the Government will carry out the Bill in its original form. Having regard to the fact that the county involves a large area, and consists of one-member districts, I apprehend it would be very difficult to carry out in the county the system of triennial election which exists in boroughs. Therefore, although I think the county system would be desirable if it could be carried out in boroughs, I do not think that that is practicable. Whatever is to be said in favour of triennial election in counties, I think there is nothing to be said in its favour as applied to boroughs. In a and the wards are not single-member borough you have division into wards, wards; they have sometimes as many as six or boroughs divided into wards in that way, eight representatives. With it is convenient that a certain number of councillors and aidermen should go out of office every year, so that each locality should have the power to import new blood, and that a certain proportion of the council should every year be compelled to go before the electors. A borough is in that respect wholly unlike a county, where you have an aggregate of population, and fresh questions are continually arising, and the local circum "That clause 16, as amended, stand part of stances are entirely different. I think, the Bill." Agreed to. CLAUSE 17. Amendment proposed "Page 8, line 31, at end, insert "Provided that the Local Gove nment Board, on request made by a resolution of the council of any such borough passed by two-thirds of the members voting on such resolution, may by order apply to the borough the provisions of this Act with respect to the duration of office of councillors, and make such incidental provisions as appear to the Board necessary or expedient for bringing such application into Mr. Gerald Balfour. therefore, it would be better to leave the law as to boroughs as it stands at present. I have another objection to this Amendment, and that is this: I think the law with regard to boroughs ought to be the same all over Ireland. At present every locality has a separate law. Cork has a different system from that of Belfast; Belfast, again, has a different system from that of Derry. That is not only so with regard to the franchise, but it is largely so with regard to rating, and a number of other matters relating to the government of boroughs, which makes it exceedingly difficult, not only for lay men but even for lawyers, to state what up they the law is in any particular locality. We for three years. I should like to know have not many municipal boroughs in Ire- from the Chief Secretary what is going land, but, I think, with regard to so many to take place in boroughs next year. as we have, the law should be the same Some of the aldermen, of course, were the same franchise, the same period of elected this year, and, according to election, the same method of election, the the law as it at present stands, . same distribution of members going out would be entitled to hold of office at the same time. I quite concede that this clause proposed by the right honourable Gentleman will make it possible for any locality either to adopt the provisions of the Act or not. That does not commend itself to my mind. In my view, there could be no option in this matter; the municipal law in these matters should be governed by Act of Parliament, so that one may tell, on looking at the Act, what the law is in any particular locality. For these reasons I trust the right honourable Gentleman will not press this Amendment. I do not think it will be an improvement on the frame of the Bill. I do not know whether the right honourable Gentleman intends that, in cases where this clause may be adopted, every year a local government register should have to be prepared. I apprehend that under this Amendment that will have to be done every year, whether an election takes place or not. If that be the intention of the right honourable Gentleman, I think it makes matters worse. The registration law is certainly sufficiently tangled and complicated already, without bringing in the further element that in different localities the register should be made up on different principles. MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, W.): I am sure this Amendment would be generally welcomed in Belfast, and I hope the Chief Secretary will not be induced to give way, but that he will press the Amendment. *MR. P. A. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.): I think we should hear from the Chief Secretary some arguments in support of this Amendment if it is to be pressed. It is stated in the Bill that there is to be no change in the constitution of boroughs. This sub-section, if passed, will certainly involve a change. Aldermen are at present elected for six years; it is now proposed that they should be elected only If a MR. KNOX: In the city of Belfast there is only one alderman for every ward, and there is no triennial election of aldermen. Therefore, it will be impossible, in Belfast, at any rate, "to make the triennial election of councillors coin cide with the triennial election of aldermen." I have never heard, before the speech of the honourable Member for West Belfast, that there is any feeling anywhere in Ireland in favour of this change. I venture to doubt whether that honourable Gentleman should not press is so, and I would suggest that the right his Amendment now. If between this and the Report stage. any general feeling were expressed in favour of the change, the right honourable Gentleman could reconsider the matter, and, if he thought fit, make his proposal again on Report. MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I would point out that this Amendment is only permissive. I do not think any of the dangers can arise from it which honourable Members opposite appear to appre hend. I notice that, while the honourable Member for Cork takes a strong view as to triennial as against annual elections in county boroughs, the honourable Member for North Louth has an Amendment on the Paper which goes very much further than this, because he proposes that aldermen should be elected for six years. My Amendment simply proposes that the election in county boroughs should be absolutely assimilated to that in counties. I confess it is not Bill as originally introduced did not contain this clause, and as it is plain that it is defective in the matter of wording, to withdraw the Amendment now, and reconsider it, reserving to himself the right of moving it on Report. *MR. P. A. M'HUGH: Whether this Bill. passes or not, the Parliamentary Register must be prepared every year; so that, in my judgment, if a supplement had to be added to the Parliamentary Register, containing the names of women and peers living in the district, the extra expense would be very small. MR. KNOX: If the Chief Secrefor co-option, I think that is rather an tary intends to urge this as a reason additional reflection upon the Amend an Amendment that I should press in the face of any general opposition on the part of honourable Members; but, after all, it is only permissive, and I cannot see that the introduction of it could possibly do any harm. I think, on the whole, the system of triennial elections is more desirable than that of annual elections, but we do not propose to force the three years' system on any boroughs. On the contrary, this proposed sub-ment. On the whole, I was against it before, section requires a two-thirds majority in but this makes it, to my mind, even more favour of the change. As to the other objectionable a proposal In counties point raised by the honourable Member there is something to be said in favour of for Cork, I am not sure that there is not filling up vacancies by co-option, because something in it, and I will consider it it is obvious that frequent elections in before we get to the Report stage. I rural districts cause a great deal of inconwould suggest that honourable Members venience; but, so far as county boroughs opposite should accept this Amendment are concerned, there is no difficulty of now, and if there is anything defective in that kind. If it is possible for a twothe frame of it we will consider on Report thirds majority on a council to adopt this sub-section, the minority on that council may find its representation becoming less and less as the years of the council's existence go on. I think this proposal will be considerably resented by almost al the councils, and that the Chief Secretary should reconsider the matter. If any how to meet it. MR. M. HEALY: I think I am entitled to an answer upon the point I raised whether the Local Government Register will go on being prepared every year. that the intention of the right honourable Gentleman? MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes. Is MR. M. HEALY: Does he also intend that vacancies should be filled by co-option? MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes. As the Bill at present stands, I do not think it is avoidable that the Register should be prepared every year. MR. M. HEALY: I think that will take away any benefit there might be in the proposed change. So far as I am aware, no single Irish local body has desired this alteration, and I would press the right honourable Gentleman, as the Mr. Gerald Balfour. necessity for the change is shown, he can put the Amendment down again on Report. Question put "That those words be there added." Amendment proposed "Page 8, line 31, after 'apply,' insert if before the twenty-ninth day of September "(6) The Local Government Board shall, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight they are requested so to do by a petition signed by not less than one-fourth of the council, by order prescribe the number of into wards in the same manner as in the case aldermen and councillors and the sub-division of a county council."-(Mr. Knox.) a MR. FLYNN: Yes. The words are that on "a petition signed by not less than one-fourth of the council" the Local Government Board "shall "-not "may" MR. KNOX: The next Amendment which stands in my name embodies provision that I think will be useful. The division into wards in the Irish towns, in most cases, took place a very long time" prescribe the number of aldermen ago, and they are now found to be most unsuitable for the purposes of municipal government. At present I believe there is no power at all under the Irish municipal law to revise the sub-division into wards, except by a separate Act of Parliament in every case. In the case of English cities a council may, by a twothirds majority, revise its own wards. I venture to think that, now that we are setting out on a new scheme of municipal government in Ireland, it would be well to give to any council that may be dissatisfied with the constitution of its wards the right to require the Local Government Board to divide up the borough again at the same time that they are dividing up the counties. I cannot see that there can be any objection to my Amendment, and I therefore move it. MR. JOHNSTON: The honourable and learned Member for Londonderry objected to the last Amendment of the Chief Secretary on the ground that the majority would be able to override the minority. Here he proposes that a minority of one-fourth shall override the majority of three-fourths; and not only that the Local Government Board "may," but "shall" prescribe a re arrangement, on the application of one fourth of any council. I hope the Chief Secretary will resist the proposal. MR. FLYNN: For once I find myself in accord with the honourable Member for West Belfast. I can hardly understand why this Amendment is proposed. It provides that a very limited number"not less than one-fourth of the council" -may revolutionise the whole municipal arrangements of the borough. MR. KNOX: No. and councillors and the subdivision into MR. KNOX: I am really surprised |