investigated, and for that purpose they employed counsel to go before the judge of the High Court-who was one of the judges of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench-finally to determine what the damage was. Then why should it be imputed to this body, which is one of the most responsible bodies in the whole Empire I say that without fear of contradiction-why should it be imputed to them that they were guilty of something like malversation and corruption? Why should this opportunity upon a technical clause be made the ground for imputing to the general body of the inhabitants of Dublin that they were seditious? Such language as that coming from such a weighty authority-as I admit, from his talent and his position, my honourable and learned Friend un

MR. T. M. HEALY: The opinion of the Government seems to be this, that nobody can be just or honest in Ireland unless he is in receipt of £3,500 a year. You may be a hanger-on of the Government, or a person using backstairs influence; you may be a person of the most cringing and snivelling description in order to secure office; but the moment you get it the arm of judicial authority is placed upon you, and you become endowed with all the virtues, and we must prostrate ourselves in admiration before you. But the ordinary human citizen of Dublin who goes to trouble and man, who does his work for nothing—the expense in the discharge of civic duties, who looks after the rates, and streets, and lighting, and who does the work at great expense, trouble, and inconvenience to himself for the first time a brand of and of want of confidence is placed upon contempt and of dishonour, so to speak, him; and his functions, without any necessity whatever, are to be handed over to the officials of Dublin Castle. this is all to be done in a Local Government Bill. The Member for the St. Stephen's Green Division has told us of the corruption of the jury of the Dublin Corporation, and of the fact that the Dublin Corporation found it necessary

And

claims. I remember the notorious case

doubtedly is—gives the Members of this House who do not know Ireland that is the English and Scotch Members-the impression that Ireland is something beyond the pale of reason, and almost of civilisation. I do trust, with regard to this section, that the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland-whose lecture I do not altogether regret, because I think it my business to say something on behalf of this Corporation, which I hope will have a good deal of force and effect-with regard to this clause will explain why it applies to every municipal borough in to employ counsel to reduce extravagant Ireland, because the definition of borough is not confined merely to seven or eight cities, or whatever they are, but it applies to every municipal borough, and those boroughs are getting no benefit from this Act. They are not getting any relief from what has been called the bribe or the dole. They are not relieved from any portion of their share of burdens, and they do not participate in this £780,000 a year. Why, then, should you disturb their ancient constitution in this respect? Has any reason been given, and has any advantage been claimed for it? Honourable Members from below the Gangway have remonstrated against this clause, and I do respectfully submit that it will not in any way impair the symmetry of the Bill, or its general object, if the Amendment is accepted, and I do ask the Government to yield to the Amendment of the honourable Member for Cork, and leave out this clause.

Mr. Serjeant Hemphill.

of Sibthorpe's compensation. He was a leading freemason of the city of Dublin, and his claim was resisted by the City Corporation, and the arbitrator gave a few hundred pounds. But he was able, however, backed up by a freemason jury, to get a sum equivalent to three times the value of his property. This was done by the partisans of law, order, and virtue, to show that all the corruption was on one side, and all the decency on the other. And yet an occasion like this, when the Committee was getting on quietly, is used to stir up indignation of this kind when we are debating without any heat or needless partisanship. But when the gardener's widow was shot, she was not able to get a shilling, although Sibthorpe was able to empannel a freemason jury to give him three times the value of his premises. I noticed the words of the Chief Secretary-the very careful words he chose in his speech

The Committee divided.-Ayes 89; And this is being Noes 126.-(Division List, No. 94.)

AYES.

Gibney, James
Gold, Charles
Gourley, Sir E. Temperley
Harwood, George
Hayden, John Patrick
Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-
Healy, Maurice (Cork)
Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)
Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.
Holburn, J. G.

Hutton, A. E. (Morley)
Jordan, Jeremiah
Kilbride, Denis
Kitson, Sir James

Knox, Edmund F. Vesey
Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Lewis, John Herbert
Macaleese, Daniel
MacNeill, John G. Swift
M'Ghee, Richard

M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.)
M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)
McKenna, Reginald
McLaren, Charles B.
Maden, John Henry
Molloy, Bernard Charles
Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)
Murnaghan, George
Nussey, Thomas Willans
2 R

[FOURTH SERIES.]

Amendment proposed

Page 8, line 43, at end, add

(d) The council of each county borough shall elect the harbour board or port authority now exercising jurisdiction within any portion of such borough; (e) the council of each county borough shall be entitled to elect the same number of Commissioners to the Irish Lights Board as the Corporation of Dublin."-Mr. T. M. Healy.)

MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. engaged in restricting the powers of the The Government have all along been Irish corporations. Let us see now whether, in the Local Government Bill,

MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, I will they will do anything to extend it. My accept that Amendment.

proposal is that the port authority shall be elected by the corporation much in the same way as was the case at Cork

away, and the corporation lost its ancient jurisdiction and influence, and it was given to the port and docks authority, and a nice muddle they made of it. At this moment the port authority is practically bankrupt, and has no real means of carrying on the business of the port, and in the face of that they claimed last

If that is too strong, I am willing to accept the proposal that half half the port authority should be elected by the corporation, if the Government cannot see their way to widen the scope of the Bill to the extent I desire. My Amendment has one great advantage, and that is that every existing local authority is opposed to it. That is the greatest com-year power to put an additional tax upon pliment that could be paid to my Amendment. The ridiculous franchise which exists all over the country is left, and not one of these boards wants to be responsible to public opinion. They are engaged upstairs in a long argument over a Bill not promoted by the Nationalists, because we have several times endeavoured to bring about some reform of the port authority of the Port of Dublin. But this Bill is promoted by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, which is a reading-room in the city of Dublin and nothing more, and it is felt to be a great scandal that this reading. room, on its own motion, has brought in a Bill to reform the port authority. I understand that the course taken by the Port and Docks Board is this-and it is rather comical: first of all, they give the Dublin Corporation seven members, then they ie them three-whereas they have already five- and now, in fear of their opposition, they are going to give them more. They are going to play this trick upon this House, as to which I now warn the Government, that we will give them days over this Port and Docks Bill, because the position they are adopting is that they will accept the Amendments moved in this House, but when the Bill gets into the House of Lords. they are going to strike out the Amendments, so that this House will only afterwards have the question before it of agreeing with the Lords' Amendments. I have the strongest distrust of the Port and Docks Board. Originally, under the hand and seal of the Irish Parliament-the authority to which we owe anything that is good and democratic in Ireland-the control of the port authority was vested in the Dublin Corporation, but in the bad days, by a private Act, this board was filched from the corporation, stolen

commodities, and an additional tax upon vessels. They seem to have an idea that the taxes upon commerce are paid by the shippers, but I say that the taxes upon commerce are not paid by the shippers, but by the general body of the community. And so absurd are the port dues of Dublin that you can bring in ready-made window frames without a tax, but if you bring in the materials for making them there is a tax upon those materials. So that actually there is a premium offered to these foreign window frame makers, whereby the native manufacturers, who are working up the raw material for the window frames, are put to a great disadvantage. So much for the port authority of Dublin. What is the state of things in Belfast? The Corporation of Belfast have twice appeared at the Bar of the House of Lords, in order to oppose the Belfast Harbour Bill, and the House of Lords said that the Corporation of Belfast had no locus standi. That is to say, that the great Corporation of Belfast, the mayor of which was made Lord Mayor not long ago by Her Majesty, has no locus standi in connection with its harbour, according to the decision of the House of Lords, and by the high franchise, which excludes the general body of the people from any control over it, they keep up this miserable clique. The case of Cork is a reasonable one, and it is in order to approximate the case of Cork to that of the other ports of Ireland that I bring forward this Amendment. If you go to Limerick or Waterford you have the most unreasonable state of things. You have a franchise which admits nobody except a very select few, with the result that there have been injunctions granted by various Masters of the Rolls in regard to the port authority.

The latest Act on this question is observations about the Harbour Board of a private Act of 1863, relating to Dun- Dublin. There is no doubt that the garvan. By that Act the Dungarvan Corporation have been given the sole control of the port and are the port authority, but if you go to the older Act you will find a franchise of the most extra ordinary description. Now, I certainly say that the time has come, if you will steal from us our ancient rights and franchises, to give us some enjoyment of our privileges. If you take away our ancient rights, our compensation for malicious injuries, our right to the re moval of coroners, what substitute do you give us? Why is my lease to be broken in regard to the payment of rates? By this Bill, in respect of a lease, under which the landlord should pay all my rates, he can say, "No, I shall not," although I made my contract in the open market, with that provision. You are taking away from us rights which we have had, rights as to which there was no complaint, and under these circumstances it is only fair that these absurd anachronisms should be reconstituted, and that some popularly-elected authority should be appointed. If the Government will give me some assurance that they will consider the matter, I shall not press my Amendment.

MR. WOLFF: This is one of the most extraordinary proposals I ever heard made before the House. This is a proposal to alter the franchise of the Harbour Board, and a proposal to set up the corporation or the town council as the harbour authority, or, I should say, to enable the corporation or the town council to elect the harbour authority. I can quite understand that the honourable Gentleman opposite is not satisfied with the franchise which elects the Harbour Board, and that he should, like my honourable Friend the Member for Londonderry, bring in a proposal that the franchise should be altered altogether. But to throw the whole election, or half of the election, into the hands of the borough council or the corporation, seems to me to be a most extraordinary proceeding, and one which, I trust, will not commend itself to the Government. The honour able Member has made some strong Mr. T. M. Healy.

board was in a very bad condition, but
from the fact that there is a Bill before
the House of Commons it is evident that
the condition of things may be altered
with the consent of this House. In the
course of the Debate. the honourable
Member said that the Bill to which I
have alluded had been promoted by the
Chamber of Commerce of Dublin, which
he calls a reading-room. As a matter of
fact it is representative of all the largest
traders and merchants and shippers in
Dublin, who know far more about the
working of a harbour than a county coun-
cil or town council is likely to do; and
I may add that this Bill is not only being
promoted by the Dublin Chamber of
Commerce, but it is being promoted with
the consent of the Corporation of Dublin.
which corporation, I fancy, has many
gentlemen on it whose political opinions
are the same as those of the honourable
Member. In regard to Belfast. I can
only say that they certainly have done
the very best work that I know of being
done by any harbour board. I do not
know of one which would have done
better. But if again that is wrong, if
again the constitution of the board or the
constitution of the electorate does not
please my honourable Friend, there is a
remedy before the House; and it seems
to me that the thing to do would be to
alter the method of election, but not
giving the election of the Harbour Board
to make a sweeping alteration like this.
to the town council altogether.
through Ireland there is no uniform sys
tem as regards harbour boards at all.
Every harbour board has its own law, and
every one of them works in a different
way, and such a proposal as the honour-
able Member now makes is entirely dif-
ferent to anything that was proposed in
the English Local Government Bill. It
is an entirely new departure, and one
which, if adopted, would be likely to give
very much worse boards than we have at
present. I feel that if the election of the
the hands of any body like the town
Harbour Commissioners were to rest in
council or the borough council, it would
be a serious incentive to jobbery.
doubt very much whether a town council
would elect members of the harbour
boards themselves, who would form a
body capable of doing the work as well as

All

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