could have saved my estate, and lived quietly as others did. But my conscience told me, I ought to wait upon the king, and offer him my personal service, when I could do him no other. I have shown how the witnesses have forsworn themselves; I shall now, if your lordships please, desire your opinion in some points of law. And though perhaps I may Hame to your lordships many things that are impertinent, or not to the purpose, I beg your lordships pardon, it is out of the weakness of my understanding; and I hope you will not think ill, neither your lordships nor the House of Commons, if I should, through ignorance, move things impertinent. The first point of law is this: First, I conceive there is no example or precedent for it, that proceedings criminal ever did continue from parliament to parliament, and this is continued to three. L. H. S. Speak out, my lord, and go on. L. Staff. Secondly, my lords, I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least; but, my lords, I know they impeach when they find grounds for it without dispute: But I question whether any man, by the known laws of this kingdom, in capital cases, can be proceeded on, but by indictment first found by the Grand Jury, and not by impeachment by any person, or other body of men. L. H. S. Say on, my lord. L. Staff. Thirdly, my lords, I conceive there are many defects in the indictment or the impeachment, (indictment there is none.) There is no overt-act alledged in the indictment or impeachment, I know not well what it is called. And, my lords, by the act of parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be treason, but according to the statute of 25 Ed. S. which includes an overt-act. Fourthly, My lords, I desire that I may prove that by law they are not competent witnesses, for they swear for money. But, my lords, I forgot one thing to say to your lordships as to the evidence, that these gentlemen did endeavour to prove (I do not speak whether they did or not) a general plot of the papists; whether they did or not, I am not concerned in it, for I say, they have not proved me a papist, which I submit to your lordships; and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge, yet they baving not given any proof of it, it is Fifthly, There is one point of law more, That no man can be condemned for treason, as 1 conce, by one witness; and there are not two wees to any one point. These are the points of law; I humbly beg your lordships for the trouble, and desire your opinion Jones. My lords, before we make anwhat my lord hath said, I do humbly That for the objection which he hath inst Mr. Southall, proved by a noble his House (though, I must observe it is own knowledge, but by hearsay, tter of hearsey contrary to the act of oblivion) to the end there may be no doubt remain of Mr. Southall's credit, that a noble lord of this House, and a gentleman of the House of Commons (who both know Mr. Southall) may be heard to his reputation. Sir F. Winnington. Lord Ferrers knew him not himself, but my lord Brook and Mr. Gower will give a better account of him. (The lord Brook was sworn.) Lord Brook. My lord, what I have to my concerning this Mr. Southall is, That he hath been often employer both by my brother and my mother; and they have so good an opines of him that they employ him still; and therefore we take him for an bonest man, ast an able man, or he would not he so mech trusted and employed: And I take lum to be a very good churchman; for if he was not, ! would not employ him. L. H. S. An honest man, an able, and a good churchman, your lordship says? Lord Brook. He receives the sacrament ber times a year. Sir W. Jones. Then swear Mr. Wil Leveson Gower, a member of the House Commons; (which was done in his place.) Mr. L. Gower. My Lords, I have been neer seven years of Staffordshire, but did not kasa Mr. Southall till this popish plot was discovent After that I came acquainted with him (bengt justice of the peace in that county) in cost, where I found him to be the most zealous prosecutor of the papists in that country, no ma like him. I likewise found several popis priests had by bis means been apprebended and imprisoned, and one of them since convicted, who by the way still remains unexecuted in Stafford gaol. What opinion some may bre heard or bad of him formerly, I cannot tell; but this I know, that he hath more than once come to desire my assistance, that he migh prosecute the papists the most effectual way upon the statutes made for that purpose, and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere. My lords, I take opinion to be grounded upon principles; and! do observe that those of this country who de believe this popish plot, and know Mr. Southall, and are principled for the preservation of the king, the protestant religion, and the government, do at this time speak well of brim, and those who are not so principled speak otherwise. My lords, I was surprised when I heard my name mentioned upon this occasion: I have told your lordships all the matter of fict that upon the sodden occurs to me, (with my own opinion, which I offer with all submission; and had I had notice, I might possibly have recollected more, which I would freely have declared to your lordships, but this is all that I can now say. L. Staff. My lords, if your lordships please, I would say one word, if you will give me leave; I am very ignorant, and beg your lordships pardon for troubling of you: I humbly desire to know, whether after the points of law are argued, I may speak something, not concernng the evidence of the plot, but concerning myself. Sir W. Jones. My lords, we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself; but we must conclude, and have the last word. L. H. S. My lord, the gentlemen that are for the House of Commons must conclude. My lords will give you all the favour they can, but they must have the last word. L. Staff. I do not oppose it. L. H. S. Therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together. For the points of law, my lords will give no judgment till the Commons have answered them, and they I suppose will first sum up the whole proofs; then you may say what you have to say, for they must make an end. Gentlemen, will you speak first to the law? Sir W. Jones. No, my lords, first to the fact. 1. H. S. Go on then. Then Sir William Jones, one of the tee appointed to manage the evidence, began to sum up the same as followeth: Your lordships were told by one of the witnesses of a Lord-Chancellor, and of a LordTreasurer, (lords now in the Tower yet to be tried;) and you were told also of officers for the military part, a general, a lieutenant-general, and this lord at the bar to be paymaster of the army. I shall, my Lords, desire to take notice to your lordships, that this design, though it was to be finally acted by other hands, yet it was first contrived, and afterwards carried on by the Priests and Jesuits. You will find them preparing for it, by making sermons to justify that doctrine (which I confess this noble lord denies) of the lawfulness of killing kings. You will find the priests and jesuits, in their discourses as well as sermons, urging and encouraging their disciples and votaries, to go on with their de sign of killing our king, and giving that common reason for it, that he was a heretic, and it were meritorious to take him out of the way. My lords, I take notice of these particulars in the general plot, because it may give great commit-light to, and add much to the confirmation of the particular evidence. And my Lords, (I think) I may take leave to say that the plot in general bath been now sufficiently proved. And if we consider what hath been proved at for mer trials (upon which many of the offenders and traitors have been executed) what hath been published in print; and above all Coleman's letters, written with his own hand, and for that reason impossible to be falsified; we may justly conclude, that there is not a man in England, of any understanding, but must be fully convinced of the truth of the Plot in ge May it please your lordships; We have now done our evidence as to Matter of Fact; and that which I have in charge at this time, is to remind your lordships of our Proofs; to answer the objections that have been made against them; and to make some observations upon the whole. My lords, The members of the House of Commons that were appointed for the service of the management of this trial, those of them I mean who began the first day, made a divi-neral. I shall spare to mention the resolutions sion of our evidence into two parts; the one that which concerned the plot in general, and the other what related to this lord in particular. and declarations of two parliaments, and of both Houses in those two parliaments, without (as I remember) one dissenting voice, expressing their full satisfaction of the reality of the Plot: My lords, as to the Plot in general, we did so that I think now none remain that do precall six witnesses; I know some of your lord-tend not to believe it, but two sorts of persons; ships have taken notes, and you have their names: They were Smith, Dugdale, Prance, Oates, Dennis, and Jenison. My lords, because I will save as much of your time as I can, I will not take upon me to repeat what each witness said as to the plot in general; but when I come to the evidence which immediately concerns my lord, I must beg your favour that I may be more particular. I will say thus much for the proofs of the plot in general, that there was by those witnesses so much fully proved, that made it most apparent that there was a general design amongst the Roman catholics to introduce their false religion into this kingdom, that the Jesuits had several meetings to that end, that they endeavoured to do it by several ways, by raising of arms, by collecting of monies, and by designing against the king's life; nay, they had so far advanced their designs, and were in so much readiness, as they thought it time to appoint officers not only for their army, but for the civil government, as if the work were already accomplished, the one, those that were conspirators in it; and the other, those that wished it had 'succeeded, and desire it may so still. But, my lords, I will be the shorter on this part; for perhaps it will be objected, you have offered a fair proof of a general Plot, here are records, votes of both houses, papers and evidences printed, and witnesses viva voce to prove it; but what is all this to my lord Stafford? My lords, it goes a great way to him; I do not say to be a convincing evidence, but to make the particular evidence against him highly credible. Your lordships cannot imagine, that there are such a store of lords and great men amongst that party (though there he too many) that they should have great choice for great offices. Your lordships hear how the other great offices were disposed of, and truly I think the merit of this lord amongst that party might very well entitle him to an office as great as this of Treasurer of War, or Pay-master to the Army. But what is the evidence of the general Plot (may some still say) to my lord Stafford? What do you mention the raising an army? What do you mention the collecting of money? What do you mention the providing of arms for? Yes, my lords, they are very useful, for they give a fair introduction to prove against this lord, that he was to have this office. If it be proved by other witnesses than those who swore directly against this lord, that there were arms provided, that there was an army to be raised, and the rest; it proves at least, that there was occasion for such an officer as the particular witness proves my lord to be. My lords, for the other matter that relates to the consultations of the Priests and Jesuits and their sermons and discourses, I desire your lordships to observe that also; which if you do your lordships will easily perceive what a great influence even that matter hath upon the particular evidence, and how credible it renders the testimony of the particular witnesses. Your lordships will find, when my lord was at Tixall (as Dugdale gives you an account) there was Evers the Jesuit, and other priests still at my lord's elbow, and egging him on to this business. Your lordships will find where Oates speaks of him, it is at Fenwick's chamber, who was a Jesuit, giving him ghostly counsel. Your lordships will find, that at Paris where Mr. Tubervile speaks of him, there were Father Sherborne, Father Nelson, and Father Anthony Turbervile. Still the priests are about my lord; and when my lord is among them, or but newly come from them, then he utters the treason of killing the king. And doubtless this traiterous purpose of his did arise from their counsels: so that though our witnesses speak of my lord's discourses at several times about killing the king, yet they make them flow from one and the same fountain, the instigation of the Priests and Jesuits. But now, my lords, to come to the particular evidence, I think I may say, if ever evidence was convincing, this is so. We have brought three witnesses which speak each of them that which is sufficient to prove my lord guilty; and they speak of overt-acts too, as I shall observe anon. His lordship was pleased at the beginning of our evidence to desire that the witnesses might look him in the face; and for that he cited two statutes, I suppose he intended the statutes of 1 and 5 of Edw. VI. which statutes, or at least one of them, do say, that there shall be in case of High-Treason, two witnesses to accuse, and those two witnesses brought face to face at the time of Trial: and my lord hath had the benefit of those laws; he hath had two, may three witnesses to prove him guilty, brought face to face before your lordships; and if these three, or any two of them deserve to be credited, my lord in this case is guilty of HighTreason. My lords, I must beg the favour of looking upon my paper of notes; for the truth is, the witnesses are so many, and the proceed. ing bath held so long, that is impossible for ny weak memory to retain all that was said. My lords, the first witness we began withal was Dugdale; and I know your lordships did take notice what he swore: but it will be my duty to remind your lordships, that he tells you, That he had heard of a general design of making preparations to be ready against the king's death, and this for several years past. But as to the matter of hastening the death of the king, that was but a late counsel. He tells you, I think, that about the latter end of August, or the beginning of September, 1678, Evers and other Jesuits were at Tixall, that there was a consult then about the king's death; and that (by the means of Evers, who was a very great man among them, but since fled, and is mentioned in the impeachment) he was admitted to that consult, and heard particularly what every man said; and he does take upon him to say, That at that time the matter of taking away the king's life was propounded, and that my lord, the prisoner at the bar, did consent to it. My lords, he tells you further, That upon a Sunday-morning my lord came from Stafford to Tixall to mass: My lord was pleased to observe, that we do not prove him a Papist; but we prove my lord came to mass, and that, I think, is one good proof of his being a Papist. Be sides Dugdale swears my lord did then complain, That they had not the free exercise of their tëligion; that they could not say their prayers openly: What were they? Not the prayers of Protestants, not those contained in the liturgy of our church. He could not complain of any restraint as to them; but complain he did, that they had not the free exercise of their re ligion; but he did hope, if things succeeded well, in a short time it would be otherwise. This is particularly sworn by Dugdale. My lords, his lordship was very much an satisfied, that Dugdale was not particular in point of time; he did talk of some matters to be in August or September, but could not fix to any day. But your lordships will remember, that as to one particular, and which mainly concerns his lordship to answer, he comes to a day, or within a day; for he swears positively, That upon the 20th or 21st of September he was sent for to my lord's chamber, the servants were put out; that there my lord did propose to him, in express terms, the matter of killing of the king: He would have him be an actor in it, and he offered him a reward of 500l. to perform it. For this, which is the most material part of his particular evidence against my lord, he is certain it was either on the 20th or 21st of September; and he tells your lordships how he comes to remember the time, by a good token, by the foot race that was then to be run; and I do not perceive that my lord does deny, but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his chamber at that time. It is true he does deny some other circumstances which I shall answer anon. And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount * See some proceedings respecting his che racter, in the Commons' Journal, April 15, 1679. o an overt-act, and a damnable one too, that s the offering 500l. to kill the king. But Dugdale (it seems) was not willing to depend upon the promises of my lord for so much money, his lordship had not that credit with him; he repairs to Evers, and desires to be satisfied from him, whether he might rely upon my lord for so much money? Evers told him he might be sure to have the money; and that there was enough in Harcourt's and other mens' hands for the carrying on that blessed design; and that he should have it thence. I might, my lords, remember to your lordships, how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my lord; That my lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the king; how, in particular, my lord Aston's father had lost 30,000l. and what resentments my lord had of it. He said, That places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that deserted the king, and were rebels and traitors, than on those that did him faithful service: And what does he conclude from thence? he is very angry with the king, and does say, that next to the cause of religion (which was the strongest motive with hit to take away the king's life) the king's ingratitude to his loyal subjects, was that which did most offend him. I shall not trouble your lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as encouragements to the design; as that there was to be a pardon from the Pope; That my lord did write a letter to Evers, which was shewn to Dugdale, wherein he says, That things did succeed very well abroad, and he hoped they would do so at home. I shall only observe, that Dugdale's evidence, as to my lord's damnable design of killing the king, is positive and full. And if this be to be believed (as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be) then here surely is one sufficient witness to prove my lord guilty of the highest treason. My lords, the next witness we call for against my lord, was Dr. Oates; and I think Dr. Oates is not only positive, but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an overtact; nay, I think to more overt-acts than one. The doctor tells your lordships, That having been at St. Omers and in Spain, he saw several letters that were subscribed Stafford; he did not then know ny lord's hand, but he saw the letters, and he tells you the effect of those letters. And I remember in one of them there is this expression, That my lord (the prisoner at the bar) does give assurance to the Fathers, that he is very zealous and ready to do them service. former. And so then joining the one to the other, it amounts to as good an evidence as if he had known my lord's hand from the beginning. But that which comes home to my lord, is that which Dr. Oates saw, and that which Dr. Oates heard and they are these particulars which I now mention. First, he saw a commission directed to my lord to be paymaster of the army, he saw it delivered to my lord's own hand, and my lord accepted it. Dr. Oates read the commission, and he tells you by whom it was signed, Johannes Paulus Oliva, a person substituted by the Pope to issue out commissions. He tells you the contents of it, and of this he swears he was an ocular witness. He tells you of another matter he heard my lord say, as considerable as the other, That when my lord bad received the commission, my lord declared, that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire, where he was to put things in readiness. What were those things? He had now a commission, by virtue of which, in Lancashire and the other places, he was to prepare and gather monies for that army which he was to pay. So much Dr. Oates doth swear he heard from my lord's own' mouth. But there is one thing further, which I had almost forgot. He doth swear, that my lord was privy to, and approved of, the matter of killing the king; for he doth swear he did hear my lord say at that time, He hoped before 'he returned, honest William' (who was Grove that was executed for this attempt) would have done the business.' And what that business was, every man who hath heard of Grove's treason, must needs understand. There is but one thing more that I remember of Dr. Oates's testimony. Your lordships that have a better advantage to write than we, who are crowded together, may have taken notes of more; but this one thing I do observe: Dr. Oates doth expressly swear, That my lord bore a very ill mind towards his majesty; for my lord did, in his hearing, complain,That the king had deceived them a great while, and that they would bear with him, no longer, he should deceive them no more.' My lords, our third witness was Mr. Turbervile, who doth give you an account, That he being first sent to Doway, and intended to be entered there in one of the societies, (he was sent by my lord Powis and my lady Powis, and some of his relations of that religion, for that purpose) he did not like the company, he was not pleased with the exercises of that religion, and that with much difficulty he escaped thence Dr. Oates tells you, my lords, That after- and came for England. But finding he was cards coming into England, my lord Stafford not well looked upon here, nor well received write a letter, I think it was to his son; by his relations, he went over to France: That it sure I am, the Doctor said, he had the car- being at Paris, he came into the company of ge of it to the post-house; That he saw my the three Fathers I named before, Father Sherwrite it; he read the superscription, and borne, Father Nelson, and Father Turbervile; wears, that the hand which writ that let-the last whereof, he tells you, was his own was the hand which subscribed to all the brother: That by the means of these priests he was brought acquainted with my lord Stafford; them for sir George Wakeman the popish phy. and doubtless they were able to make him in-sician, and in him for other their friends of that timately acquainted with my lord. And it did party, that they might not have so much liberty prove so, for he tells you, after some time, that of thought, as to observe exactly all circum. in a lower-room of my lord's lodging, my lord stances sworn to by the witnesses; and there proposed to him the business of killing the king. fore it is no great matter if they are mistaken That he did not at all like it, was very unwill-in them. But I believe if any one do consul ing to undertake it, but my lord bid him consider of it, and that he should give him his answer at Diep, having enjoined him secrecy; but my lord after sent him word he would go by Calais: and the witness afterwards went into England, and from thence into the French army. And this is the substance of what Turbervile deposeth. And, my lords, I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens testimonies, but that here are two witnesses, if not more, to prove my lord guilty of treason. But my lord has been pleased against them to make several objections; some have been by witnesses which he hath produced to encounter the proofs that we have offered; and some of them have been by observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our witnesses and his. I will keep to order as much as I can, and not confound the order and method of his defence. The witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale, and of them his lordship was pleased to begin with his daughter, the lady Marchioness of Winchester, and his niece Mrs. Howard. Your lordships, I presume, are pleased to observe what they were called to. They did testify that being at Wakeman's trial, they did hear Dugdale swear (says my lady marchioness of Winchester) that my lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July, and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive orders from my lord; and he swore (as she was pleased to say) that there was a consult in August at Tixall, and my lord Stafford was there present. Mrs. Howard (for I put them together) was pleased to say that she was present at that trial, and there Dugdale swore that my lord Stafford did come down in June or July, and that my lord was at the consult in August. My lords, I will not make objections neither to the religion of these ladies, nor to their relation to my lord, though those be matters that are to be considered. But that which I shall observe to your lordships, is this, that they do not agree one with another: For my lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my lord was to come down in June or July, and Mrs. Howard says, that he swore he did come down then. Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down, and swearing the very act that he did come down at that time. By which your lordships may observe, how hard a matter it is for witnesses that are present at a trial (especially at a trial which did not directly, though it might in consequence concern another person of their relation) to take notice exactly of things. And truly, my lords, these ladies being of that religion, might have so much concern upon | the print (though it be no evidence, nor offered as such) he will find no such thing was at that time sworn; for it is not so printed, and those that took notes did not understand it so. My lords, the next witness my lord is pleased to bring, is his servant Furnese; and what is that he testifieth? He saith, that he was with my lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my lord's chamber; and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once, and he doth not remember that ever my lord bid him go out of the room. My lords, it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the negative, to remember how often Dugdale was there, especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then, than here appears to be, and that after so long a time. And it is a very hard matter for a ser vant to gain credit, by saying his master never bid him go out of the room in bis life. These things may be done or said, and yet escape the memory of a servant of more age, and of less clination to favour his master, than this person appears to be of and to have. Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said, no force at all in it; and I be lieve your lordships will give very little regard to it; but rather believe those witnesses that swear positively, that they have seen him with my lord, and speak to a familiarity at that time between them. This, young man Furnese, was my lord's servant, and of his religion; and it is consider. able, whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary practice has been used to prepare evidence on my lord's behalf, which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other witnesses. His next witness, my lords, was his boy, George Leigh, who is 15 years of age now, and was eight years old when he came to my lord seven years ago. And he attests the same thing, and to the same purpose with the other. And I think I may leave him with the same answer, for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other. Only one thing I would observe, to shew that his me mory was imperfect; he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my lord at all that day, which my lord himself doth acknowledge he was, and the other witness agrees; so that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith. I My lord's next witness was Thomas Sawyer, and he is one of my lord Aston's servants, that desire to observe of him first. And what does he say? He saith, that Dugdale went away for debt. The contrary to which was appr rently proved; for we, by our witnesses, made it manifest, that Dugdale went away for the |