tions. I want unanimity of understanding and agreement here, so that there will be a legislative history respecting this, so that I will not be confronted later with somebody second-guessing. I want to know now what it is going to do and how it is going to operate. General MACDONNELL. Having been directed to undertake the study of the feasibility of the improvement of a waterway, we would request from the Department of Transportation an estimate of the tonnages that could be expected to move over the period in question, and an estimate The CHAIRMAN. At that point. The first thing that would be requested is an estimate of the tonnage that would likely move over that. From what source is it going to get that estimate? General MACDONNELL. Well, you have to begin with an economic base study. The CHAIRMAN. Who is going to make that? General MACDONNELL. I think they will have to, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Thinking again. Who makes it now? The CHAIRMAN. You think they are going to take that away from you with this? General MACDONNELL. To produce meaningful tonnages, they will either have to use data from our economic base study-and if it is a multiple-purpose project, we have to have one anyway-if it is a single-purpose project it may be that they could make it. The CHAIRMAN. Most of them are multiple-purpose projects; are they not? General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. IMPACT THE NEW DEPARTMENT WILL HAVE ON NAVIGATION PROJECTS The CHAIRMAN. I know they are in my State. What I am trying to get at is this: I want to know, and I want the record very clear, what impact the present language of this bill is going to have, what changes will be produced on the present method of initiating these multiple-purpose projects which do include navigation, what changes will be made in authority and in the development and construction. Now, you say none will be made in the construction-the Corps of Engineers will still construct it. General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. But you do not construct until there is authority? General MACDONNELL. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And you do not construct, of course, until there is money. And I know how you get the money. I want to go back in this development process up to the point where a project is declared-brought to Congress with a recommendation that this project is feasible, and recommend that authorization legislation be enacted. That is the field here that gives me concern. I want you to tell me as nearly as you can, just for the record, later you may want to revise these remarks, because I want you to study it as nearly as you can-just what change. Let's say the Arkansas River project was never started. Now, as of now, it would be eligible for a resoltuion to have you make a study and a survey, to report back to Congress. Now, what is the change at that point here in this proposed legislation. General MACDONNELL. The difference in this case, Mr. Chairman, would be that the estimates of tonnage that would move on the Arkansas River over a period of 50 years would come from the Department of Transportation. The CHAIRMAN. Now, is that the only thing? General MACDONNELL. Secondly, the savings on that amount of traffic would also come from the Department of Transportation. The CHAIRMAN. That is the economic savings-cost of transporting that much tonnage? General MACDONNELL. Well, it is the savings times the tonnage that gives the total benefit for the project. The CHAIRMAN. What was that? General MACDONNELL. The savings multiplied by the tonnage gives you the total benefits, the total navigation benefits for the project. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. In other words, you now make these calculations? General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You say now that function will be transferred from the Corps of Engineers to the Department of Transportation? General MACDONNELL. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, they will make a study of the amount of tonnage that will flow, and the cost of the transportation, and the savings that will result, and certify to you that the benefits from this proposed improvement or tonnage will be so much over a given period of years, and you would then take that into account in making up your estimate of cost-benefit ratio? General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. WHAT ADVANTAGES WILL BE GAINED BY THE TRANSFER? The CHAIRMAN. Now, what are the advantages in transferring that function, with respect to the amount of tonnage and the calculated savings, from the Corps of Engineers to a Department of Transportation. Where is the advantage? What do we gain by doing it? General MACDONNELL. Mr. Chairman, we deal, of course, in only one mode of transportation, water transportation. The CHAIRMAN. That is what they are going to get. Are they going to get it in any different way than the way you get it now? Is there any better or different way to get those savings figures and arrive at the benefits than the way you get them now? General MACDONNELL. Well, we are trying to do it now on a cost basis, but this is not exactly what you are getting at. I think they have to take into account the interrelationship between the several modes of transportation. This is a field in which we have not entered to a great extent. The CHAIRMAN. What does that mean? I do not know that I can follow without getting lost. You say that if this river is developed, if it is made navigable up here at Kalamazoo, we will have so many miles of river transportation, in all probability so much tonnage will move down that river, and the difference in the cost by rail or by truck-and the difference in the costs that will be incurred, the expense of moving it by barge down this river, will be so much. Is that not the way you do it now? General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I do not get this new way that the Department of Transportation would do it. What else would they do besides that? General MACDONNELL. They would do the same thing, until such time as they got any changes approved by the Water Resources Council and by the President. The CHAIRMAN. Such time as what? General MACDONNELL. Until such time as they got any changes approved by the Water Resources Council and by the President, they would do the same thing. The CHAIRMAN. You do the same thing now; do you not? General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I am trying to get at. What is the difference? I am trying to find out where the improvement is going to come from this. You say you approve of it, that you think it is a good thing. In what way is it improved, what happens? I do not see it yet. General MACDONNELL. Well, I expect, Mr. Chairman, that the best answer I can give you now, and attempt to elaborate on it later for the record, is that the expertise in transportation analysis is supposed to end up in this Department. We could estimate irrigation benefits, too, and irrigation costs. But to do so, we would have to repeat in our organization a perfectly competent organization that is in being in the Department of Interior. Consequently, we ask them for it. I would view this as the same kind of thing. The CHAIRMAN. Well, you think they are going to have more efficient, more competent experts to make the evaluation and comparisons and so forth than are now available to you? Is that what you are saying? General MACDONNELL. Well, they have considerable competence now. The CHAIRMAN. Who? General MACDONNELL. The Department of Commerce does. The CHAIRMAN. You go to the Department of Commerce now for a lot of this information? General MACDONNELL. About $190,000 worth of it this coming fiscal year. The CHAIRMAN. That is one of your sources of getting information, upon which you make these evaluations. You go there now? General MACDONNELL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you one other question for the present, and then we will do some more studying, and have another session later possibly. Is not the real purpose of this to give a veto power to the Department of Transportation over proposed projects that you might recommend? Is that not what it adds up to in its final analysis? General MACDONNELL. No, sir; because if you go beyond the step that we were discussing, where we were writing the report, trying to figure out the benefit-to-cost ratio, having concluded that report, the report under the present procedures would go to as well as the States and agencies-would go to the interested Cabinet members. Presumably in the case of a transportation project, this would be the Secretary of Commerce, among others. He may say anything he cares to with respect to it-whether that is a good or bad project, and that becomes a part of the report which is transmitted to the Public Works Committees of Congress. There is no change The CHAIRMAN. All right. Let me ask you this: Can you make a different report, or will you be bound by the report he makes? In other words, suppose you come up with a recommendation that a project is feasible, economically justified on the basis of your calculations, and you submit it to the Department of Transportation; the Department of Transportation reviews it and says in its opinion it is not economically justified. Now, what do you recommend to the Congress on that basis? General MACDONNELL. We recommend what we think is right. The CHAIRMAN. Are you sure you can do that under this bill? General MACDONNELL. We receive a report back from the Secretary of Transportation with his comments, under this bill, and it is transmitted by the President to the Congress. The CHAIRMAN. The President could do it, I know. But can you? General MACDONNELL. Well, unless the procedures are changed, we can, because under existing statute and procedures, the reports go directly from the Secretary of the Army to the Congress. The CHAIRMAN. From the Secretary of the Army they go there now. That is what I am talking about. With this bill, would you not be bound by what the Secretary of Transportation says rather than what the Secretary of the Army said? General MACDONNELL. No more than we are presently bound by what the Secretary of Commerce says. The CHAIRMAN. You think not? General MACDONNELL. I think not. NOT OPPOSED TO A NEW DEPARTMENT The CHAIRMAN. Those are some of the things we want to be sure about. As I say, I want to make a legislative history here so there will be no second guessing and misunderstandings. We want to get it down very thoroughly. I am not necessarily opposing the Department of Transportation. But I do want to know what impact this is going to have on the present procedures, and to what extent it is going to shift authority and responsibility from where it is now to the new department, so that we can very clearly understand it. And I say this in a solicitous attitude-please give it most careful study because, General, we do want this record to reflect what we can rely upon in the future. As I have said, certainly in my State, and I am sure in many others, this is a most vital provision in this bill, it is something that gives us concern, and we want to know how it is going to operate before this legislation is enacted and this department established. But in the meantime I want to thank you very much for your appearance. Give my regards to your chief, and tell him I will be talking about this from time to time. General MACDONNELL. Thank you very much. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand in recess until in the morning at 10 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, March 30, 1966.) |