Texas, I had an opportunity of studying blue-sky legislation. The result of that investigation by a committee disclosed that although blue-sky legislation is very wholesome it can be used to the detriment of the public, that these commissions are just human like the rest of us.

They make mistakes like the rest of us. It is a subject that should be examined into thoroughly to arrive at a conclusion that the public will rely upon. Some people will presume that certain securities are good and if it happens later on they are not that is too bad. But these people will make mistakes just the same as investors in securities make them. As far as helping out the ones who have already lost their earnings, we should pass a law, but we do not want to pass a law so quickly and with such haste that we are likely to cause more damage than we do good. We all know that a burnt child is afraid of the fire, and those investors in the District of Columbia and elsewhere in the United States who have been investing their funds in property in the District of Columbia do not need a word of warning right now. They have just received a word of warning that will be more effective to them than any legislation we can pass. They are going to be on their guard. They are going to use more diligence in the near future, at least. It will give us sufficient time to carefully consider legislation before placing it upon the statute books, and I am going to suggest that this bill that we are considering is 50 pages long. If you read this bill now, unless you are an expert in this line of business, I doubt if you could understand all its terms and provisions, and as chairman of this committee, when this bill is read before the House, the chairman is going to be asked to explain the provisions of this bill. I know he is a very able man. I do not discount his ability, but unless he is an expert in this line of work, I doubt if he would be able to do it offhand or that other members of the committee would be able to do it. I do not think this committee should present for consideration in the House any bill that no member of the committee is familiar with. No member can be familiar with this bill by just a mere reading of it. It takes an investigation and this is an independent body separate and distinct from any Senate committee. It is not a me, too organization, you did it and we will do it, and put our stamp of approval upon it. We have our own individual responsibility to assume and I think we should assume it and let every member of this committee of Congress assume his responsibility by thoroughly going into the merits of each and every section and clause of this bill and be able to defend each and every section when called upon on the floor of the House.

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The end of the session is near by operation of law on March 4. We have on the calendar now a bill proposing to regulate dealers in real estate in the District of Columbia. Some provisions of the bill, I think, are really good. Other provisions will be a detriment to the public. These bills contain many wholesome provisions and other provisions that will be inconvenient and work hardships upon people.

I will make a motion that these three bills, and I understand that this other bill has passed out of control of this committee, but I will make a motion to include that bill-I will move that all three of the bills be referred to a subcommittee of three members to be

appointed by the chairman of this committee, and that the subcommittee's obligation will be to report at the next session a bill or bills embodying what they consider the good features of these three particular bills. They can do that after a fair investigation, and relating to this bill that is now before the House, in this motion is embodied this provision, that no effort be made by any member of this committee to bring up that bill, but in the event it should come before the House, that the chairman of the committee be instructed. to ask the Speaker of the House of Representatives, or at least ask unanimous consent, to move that the bill be recommitted to this committee for the reason that a subcommittee is now giving that bill in connection with these others their consideration, with the expectation and hope that a bill embodying the good features of the three will be brought back to Congress at the next session. As a member of this committee I am in sympathy with doing something that will be of wholesome effect and will protect the investing public. I want to urge the favorable consideration of that motion. Mr. LOOFBOUROW. I second the motion.

Mr. PALMER. I second the motion.

Mr. HULL. It is true we will not have time to consider the details. That is true of many other measures received at every session at the end of Congress, but we depend on the good faith and ability of the other House, and this has been carefully considered by the Senate committee. It has been testified to by one of the gentlemen that many of these securities which have been sold, in which fraud is charged, have been sold all over the United States to many people, and to people in my own State, who have no knowledge whatever of the situation in the District of Columbia. It is fairly up to this committee as to whether or not we are going to assume that the Senate has been fairly correct in drafting these bills and pass this question up to Congress, or whether a handful of men on this committee are going to stop this thing and give the exponents of fraud and chicanery a chance to go on in the District of Columbia, wiping out millions of dollars, for another eight months, holding this thing up. That is the issue. It is not a question of going over this in detail. There is no question about that, and if we did we would be just like the Senate committee, 6 or 8 or 10 weeks on this proposition, delving in and sending off and getting people to bring information regarding this subject.

Mr. MCLEOD. You are talking on 3489 or 3491, not on the realestate bill that has already been reported.

Mr. HULL. We passed out the real-estate bill and that responsibility is up to Congress. Let us pass these bills out and put the responsibility up to Congress and not go home and have it said of us that we passed the buck, that we accepted the objections of people who have opposed this legislation and offered nothing to remedy this evil, and who have done nothing in 10 years to remedy a single one of these abuses. It seems to me the responsibility is right with this committee to say whether we are going to condone the abuses, the frauds that have been committeed on the country, as far as we can, by passing this bill up to Congress. I oppose the motion and ask for a roll call.

Mr. MCLEOD. Would you divide your motion? I think you are taking three bills, 3489, 3490, and 3491.

Mr. PATMAN. Yes; I am taking all three bills, 3489, 3491, and the bill that is now on the calendar, 3490.

Mr. MCLEOD. Will you divide that motion? Make it two motions, for the reason that these two bills have not been reported from this committee.

Mr. PATMAN. I know, but my motion involves a thorough investigation of the subject, including necessarily the subject matter of the bill that is now before the House. If that bill comes up the chairman will state that a subcommittee is now giving it consideration in connection with these bills.

Mr. MCLEOD. Such a motion is not in order for the reason that the two bills have not been reported from this committee, while one bill is on the calendar. That is why I ask you to divide your motion. Mr. PALMISANO. I think you ought to have a license law.

The CHAIRMAN. The chair would hold that that part of the motion relating to the bill on the calendar is not in order.

Mr. PATMAN. If we are going to kill them, kill all three. Frankly, that is what I have in mind.

Mrs. NORTON. Do you want to kill them?

Mr. PATMAN. I am against this real-estate bill we reported to the House.

Mr. MCLEOD. You are against all three?

Mr. PATMAN. No; I might be for these. I am not willing to say I will vote for them just because the Senate committee happens to be for them and I do not believe any member of this committee can consistently say that we should accept what the Senate committee has done.

Mr. MCLEOD. That statement would not apply to 3490 because the House committee has approved of it.

Mr. PATMAN. The chairman has relieved me of the necessity of changing the motion.

The CHAIRMAN. He has agreed to modify the motion.

Mr. PATMAN. I agreed when the chairman overruled.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the motion, which is very lengthy, and I will not attempt to repeat it.

Mr. TARVER. The motion as now divided applies to the two bills now pending before the committee?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. TARVER. Does the chairman hold that it is in order to make a motion to dispose of two bills at the same time?

The CHAIRMAN. Not if you question it.

Mr. TARVER. I favor one and oppose the other. I could not vote on a motion of that sort.

Mr. MCLEOD. Would the gentleman make that point on the motion?

The CHAIRMAN. If the question is raised we will have to vote on the bills separately.

Mr. PATMAN. They are closely related.

Mr. TARVER. I raise the point of order as to the right of the gentleman to propose a motion of that character.

The CHAIRMAN. The point of order is well taken. The committee will have to dispose of each piece of legislation.

Mr. PATMAN. Then we will separate them. Which bill are we considering, 3491?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. PATMAN. I ask that the motion apply to that bill.

Mr. HALL. I second the motion.

Mr. HULL. I ask for a roll call.

The CHAIRMAN. The roll call is asked for on the motion that 3491 be referred to a subcommittee. Mr. Stalker asked unanimous consent to be recorded in favor of the bill. It can only be done by unanimous consent.

Mr. PATMAN. What about the question of referring it to the subcommittee?

The CHAIRMAN. His vote would be " no on that.

Mr. PATMAN. If the chairman takes the responsibility for saying that?

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The CHAIRMAN. I take the responsibility. Record Mr. Stalker no," there being no objection.

The motion prevails on 3491, six to five.

Mr. PATMAN. I move to reconsider and table.

If

Mr. HULL. We would have no further action on this matter. you are going to pass a resolution explaining or apologizing to the public for our inability to stop these practices, let it go.

Mr. PATMAN. That would be inconsistent. Because the Senate: sent legislation over here I am not willing to vote to do something just because Senator Blaine does it.

Mr. HULL. I do not care about Senator Blaine. I am for stopping frauds in this District. That is the interest I have in this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman would like to be called and vote on this question. The chairman votes "no." The "ayes are 6 and the " noes are 6 and the motion fails. Now, Mr. Patman, you are privileged to renew your motion on the other bill if you desire to do so.

Mr. TARVER. Why not dispose of these bills finally? I move that these bills be reported to the House with the recommendation that they pass.

Mr. HULL. Certainly. I second it.

Mr. PATMAN. We will have to have a full reading of the bill. We can not pass a bill of this nature, of this length, 50 pages, and the only hearing was in the Senate committee. I have confidence in the Senate committee and I do not intend to cast any reflection, but I have my responsibility and the members of the committee have their responsibility, and I am not willing to vote for the passage of any measure that I do not know what I am voting on. If we are going to have this bill I think it ought to be read by sections.. Mr. MCLEOD. The bill was discussed in the Senate committee and discussed in the full committee yesterday. I do not know whether this is filibustering or what the gentleman has in mind.

Mr. PATMAN. You can call it anything you want to. I do not have any intentions of willfully delaying the measure. I am just seeking light. I just want to know what I am doing.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman will hold that any member has a right to demand that the bill be read section by section. It is

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manifestly impossible to get through with this bill if any dilatory tactics are employed.

Mr. PATMAN. It is not dilatory. I do not think you are authorized to say that. It is just a matter of seeking information. I doubt if the chairman himself possesses the information on these bills.

Mr. PALMER. That is my position. I do not want to vote on a proposition that has not been througly investigated.

Mr. HULL. Have you investigated all the bills you have passed on at this session?

Mr. PATMAN. Have you read the hearings before the Senate committee?

Mr. HULL. I have read most all and have more documents at my office and will bring them to you if you want them.

Mr. PATMAN. We might have them read instead of the bill. Mr. HULL. I am trying to stop these frauds.

The CHAIRMAN. If the committee wishes to go into it the Clerk will read.

Mr. STALKER. There are many important bills before the committee. Is the gentleman opposed to this bill?

M. PATMAN. I do not know whether I am or not. I do not know enough about it. Have you read the bill?

Mr. STALKER. I have read part of it.

Mr. PATMAN. Are you willing to approve it because you have read part of it?

Mr. STALKER. I think it is a pretty good bill. It has been considered by a subcommittee of the Senate committee, and what I do know is that legislation of that character is needed here in the District.

Mr. PATMAN. We need a law against fraud, of course we do, but the question is you are doing more than just legislating against fraud. You are creating a new commission, which is created to do a lot of things that the law does not provide for, in fact, starting in with the enforcement of an act, and read how far-reaching it is:

The commission shall employ from time to time such officers, attorneys, clerks, and employees as are necessary for the administration of this act. They shall perform such duties as the commission shall assign to them and their compensation shall be fixed in like manner as other employes of the commission.

It has unlimited power and authority. That is just one section I am reading.

The CHAIRMAN. Under the rules of the committee, one member has a right to demand an executive session for the consideration of the bill. The committee will go into executive session for the reading of the bill.

(Thereupon, at 11.30 o'clock a. m., the committee went into executive session and subsequently adjourned.)