Mr. ROSE. I want to ask one question, and that is this: Both Mr. Swing and Mr. Liebert are members of the American Legion and of the organization of the Spanish War Veterans?

Mr. KIBBEY. Exactly. There is no question about that. However, Judge Swing was not at the time, but that doesn't make any difference; I am not criticizing Judge Swing except as to his opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, let us hear from Mr. Ragge. Just state who you are and whom you represent.

STATEMENT OF MR. H. H. RAGGE, REPRESENTING THE

AMERICAN LEGION.

Mr. RAGGE. I am a member of the national legislative committee of the American Legion. I served in the Second Division and lost my own leg, and so I think I know these boys pretty well. I have been with the legion ever since my discharge from General Hospital No. 3, at Colonia, N. J.

Mr. TAYLOR. Where is your home?

Mr. RAGGE. In Texas. I was born in Texas and raised in the South, in Georgia and Florida.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you happen to come here representing the Imperial Valley people?

Mr. RAGGE. I am not representing the Imperial Valley; I am merely representing those members of the legion of California who passed resolutions at their State convention requesting the relief of Imperial Valley; and the resolution of our convention was rather a broad-policy outline of what the soldiers would want in the way of land and home aid, and pending the time that this special committee frames this policy the national legislative committee, with Thomas W. Miller as chairman, has taken an interest in these bills which various States have been attempting to have passed, and which gave to those members of the legion in these various States the preference right for entry on these lands for homesteads.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your calling? What was your calling before you went into the war?

Mr. RAGGE. I was a salesman and also sort of a construction employee on different projects of railroad construction generally. The CHAIRMAN. Are you an engineer?

Mr. RAGGE. I studied civil engineering in school. However, I am not a civil engineer.

Now, I will read you first the resolution of our convention which was agreed to by the committee prior to the time when Mr. Kibbey and the gentleman arrived, and of course we did not mention specifically any bill; and, in fact, the convention attempted, if possible, not to mention specific bills, because there were so many pending that affected these ex-service men that it would have been impossible to go through them all.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Which convention was that?

Mr. RAGGE. That was the national convention of the American Legion, the first constitutional convention of the American Legion,

held in Minneapolis, November 10, 11, and 12; and the resolution that I will now read was adopted unanimously there:

LAND DEVELOPMENT HOME AID LEGISLATION.

Fifteenth Whereas, the American Legion in national convention assembled, has before it a number of bills purporting to be of benefit to those persons who served honorably in the military and naval forces of the United States; and

Whereas none of the proposed bills make adequate provision for the needs of the proposed beneficiaries; and

Whereas delay would be most disastrous: Therefore be it

Resolved, That_we_request the immediate enactment of a law to be known as the American Legion home founding act embodying the following features: 1. Reclamation of unproductive lands by direct Government operation for settlement by service men and women.

2. Reclamation and development of rural communities by loans of Government credit for settlement of such communities by service men and women. 3. Direct loans to service men and women for the purchase and development of farms.

4. Direct loans to service men and women for the purchase of city homes; and be it further

Resolved, 1. That the administration of the same be decentralized. 2. That no heavy financial restrictions be imposed.

3. That the right of eminent domain be incorporated to prevent speculation. 4. That the provision of such act shall be administered by former service men and women; and be it further

Resolved, That a committee of five be appointed by the national executive committee to be known as the committee on land and home aid to secure this needed legislation.

The national legislative committee, pending the time when our national commander announces this special committee, have merely interested ourselves in these various projects, that the soldiers were interested in different localities.

Now, evidently the members of the legion in California have gone into this thing, and the various officials of the California department have sent to us resolutions that were passed from local posts and State conventions. I think Mr. Kibbey has virtually brought out all that, and there is no need for me to go into it.

Now, on this particular part of the bill here which applies to the entry under the homestead laws, Mr. Lane, Secretary of the Interior, has addressed a letter to Judge Kinkaid, and the provisions that he has asked be placed in the bill by his letter are just exactly what I think the soldier wants. I don't think that any of these soldiers want any opportunity that they are not entitled to; I think all they want is a chance. They just want an opportunity to get on this land, and I know it to be a fact that 150,000 of them have enough interest in the land alone to address letters to the Depart inent of the Interior about it.

Mr. BARBOUR. Do you prefer the homestead right to the right to purchase?

Mr. RAGGE. Yes.

Mr. TAYLOR. It is a home they want; not speculation anyhow. Mr. RAGGE. All these men-all that any of them want is a chance. Mr. TAYLOR. Certainly, but they want a chance to get a home, not a chance to get and sell something to make some money.

Mr. RAGGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Now, if these soldiers have not any money at all, what good would a piece of irrigable land do them, when it costs from $25 to $50 an acre to get the land into shape for cultivation?

Mr. RAGGE. Now, they may have relatives, or they may have kinfolks to help them along; but so far as cash outlay is concerned, I doubt very seriously if the majority have enough money to go out and buy a piece of land.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Even at $1.25 an acre?

Mr. RAGGE. If they have got $1.25 an acre to spend for the land, they probably can do a whole lot more than that, and they can get land from somebody else. But I am convinced after two years in the Army that the majority of those men haven't got enough money to get very far.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Do you think it would be a kindness to a soldier who has no money at all to put him on a piece of land and be expected to develop it?

Mr. RAGGE. If he has any chance or any help from anywhere else, it is up to him.

If he doesn't fight for this piece of land and work for it, he will never amount to very much anyway.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. I proved up on a piece of irrigated land about 15 years ago, and I know that it costs, in addition to the purchase of the land, about $50 an acre to get it into shape to raise the first crop. And that is not counting any expense in buying machinery or anything; as I rented machinery and hired much of the work done.

Mr. RAGGE. If a man has a homestead or is allowed to homestead on this land and has the assistance of friends or relatives or this community settlement plan and is extended a small line of credit from the Government or from the State, it is our thought that the man will really be benefited. If you are merely to give him 160 acres of land outright, personally, I don't think it would do the soldier very much good.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Then unless the Lane bill goes through, or something like it, these boys that go on to land would not have any opportunity at all to get a foothold.

Mr. BARBOUR. Dr. Mead stated the other day, Mr. Smith, that that was the very type of men that they were appealing to in the Durham settlement and other settlements in California, the fellow that didn't have anything and didn't have any land; he was the man they were after.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Probably under the California plan that is true, but the California plan will not extend to all of this project.

Mr. SUMMERS. But if he has the grit he will probably clear up a few acres of that with his own muscle the first year, and the next year a few more and the next a few more, and he will work it in that

way.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. If a boy has grit, as you have suggested, do not you think he will be able to save a few hundred dollars and be able to pay down $1.25 an acre on the land?

Mr. SUMMERS. If he has a few hundred dollars, he will have that in addition to the grit.

Mr. RAGGE. May I answer your question in this way: That I see 20 or 30 men every day that have not an overcoat; who are still wearing an Army overcoat. So if this bill is likely to become a law, unless the thing is fixed now for the ex-soldier, the chances are he won't have a chance at all, you see.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me understand you, Mr. Ragge. How would you have it arranged for the soldier in this bill?

Mr. RAGGE. I think that the soldiers of California and the soldiers all over the United States would rather have it an entry under the homestead laws.

The CHAIRMAN. And to pay the price they have been fixing, the minimum price for this land here all the time at $10 an acre?

Mr. RAGGE. But not to soldiers.

The CHAIRMAN. No, but you would have it just an out and out homestead right?

Mr. RAGGE. I would have the bill just exactly as it is worded at the request of Secretary Lane. I am sure that will meet the demands of the soldiers themselves.

Mr. WELLING. Did you ever have any experience on a reclamation project, Mr. Ragge?

Mr. RAGGE. No, sir.

Mr. WELLING. Do you have any idea what the total value to these soldiers is going to be of an acre of this land to buy the water for it, to acquire the title from the Government, and then to level it and get the land in shape so that he can raise a crop?

Mr. RAGGE. No; I don't know.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that all these matters are some of the hardships that the boys are necessarily up against, as we of the West all know, but nevertheless let us give them this chance, if they want to take it, and let us not quibble about giving them the opportunity. I am in favor of that.

Mr. KIBBEY. With reference to the soldiers, I want to say that the majority of them are just getting back and have not had the opportunity yet to save the few hundred dollars that has been suggested. In addition to that fact, I will say that I have had experience under reclamation acts; that I have had experience in the Salt River Valley; and that I know that the good, honest, sincere worker who is broke can get money to reclaim his land with. That is the kind of fellows that we want upon this land. I have seen it done there, and I expect to see it done here. In addition to that, I will say gentlemen, that out local legion, our legion in Los Angeles, is right now helping the returned soldier financially, and we expect Congress will help the soldiers before they get through with it.

You will notice one provision of this section provides that the land shall be reserved for any future settlement act which the Government itself may pass. If you deprive them of that privilege now, you are taking away the very cream of California's remaining public land.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. We are all in favor of the soldiers, but it is a matter of getting the money to do this reclamation work.

Mr. KIBBEY. Now, then, as to the water, under our plan the soldier will have 40 years to repay the cost of the water, under the bond

proposition. He pays by assessments the same as the other citizen pays. That is our idea. Put him on there, give him 40 acres if he is a man who is poor and hasn't got the money to reclaim 160 acres and I don't believe there are very many citizens who need to reclaim 160, but cut it down, say, 80, but don't deprive him now of the opportunity when we propose a financing scheme that will take care of him.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. How many years under the proposed plan will it be before the soldiers will have the privilege of locating a homestead on the East Mesa, if we pass this bill, and start to work on it? It will be two or three years, will it not?

Mr. KIBBEY. Yes.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Before they would have an opportunity to even make a homestead entry?

Mr. KIBBEY. Yes, sir; but they would have an opportunity then. And another feature that hadn't been spoken of, and I think Mr. Ragge will agree with me, is that this bill goes further than the ordinary bill, because it takes in the Spanish War veterans and also the Civil War veterans. The Civil War veterans were given scrip, and this isn't a new policy at all.

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. They were not given any scrip. The Civil War veteran was not given any scrip unless he entered part of 160 acres, and then he could dispose of the remainder under transfer. He was not given any scrip otherwise.

Mr. KIBBEY. I don't mean that he was just handed out the scrip, but he was given a preference, was he not?"

Mr. SMITH of Idaho. Yes; he has the preference now, and we all want to give these boys the preference.

Mr. KIBBEY. All right, then, that is what we want.

Mr. RAGGE. Well, I thank the committee for this opportunity. The CHAIRMAN. I was not as attentive as I ought to have been, Mr. Ragge, at the time you were closing your statement. I was going to inquire whether you had said all that you wished to say?

Mr. RAGGE. Yes; thank you. The special committee on land homes and aid will frame this policy as its national scheme. I suppose; that the soldiers will father or that they won't, and pending that time the legislative committee of the Legion feel that we can just take these cases as they arise before these committees, and try to express the sentiment of the men that they be given preference.

Mr. HUDSPETH. I don't know whether I got you clear on that or not, Mr. Ragge, but does the soldier want land given to him, or does he prefer paying $1.25 an acre?

Mr. RAGGE. If the soldier is given a preferential right of entry under the homestead law, that is what he wants.

Mr. HUDSPETH. That is provided in this bill at $1.25 an acre.

Mr. RAGGE. Well, he can take the purchase money of $1.25 an acre, and he can get homestead entry.

Mr. HAYDEN. Let me ask you about the land committee of the American Legion. When do you expect them to be in Washington? Mr. RAGGE. They will meet here on February 16, I think it is. Mr. HAYDEN. The committee has not yet been appointed?

Mr. RAGGE. The committee has been appointed, but it has not been publicly announced by the national commander. It is composed of five men who are chosen from different departments and geographically, too.