be medicine or dentistry or teaching or even instruction work. They invariably return to these islands.

It is my opinion that in the future they will do so. But in order for them to have a feel of the United States as they make their decisions some time in the future, it seems to me that we are taking no chances at all in permitting these people to come in under the provisions of the bill now under discussion.

Again I thank you. I would be glad to try to answer any questions that you may have. I am not an expert, but I certainly have done my best to learn these islands, because I love this part of the world.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Mr. Chelf.

Mr. CHELF. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Mr. Poff.

Mr. POFF. Mr. Chairman, as one member of the subcommittee, I want to express what I believe to be the sentiment of all members of the subcommittee, a sentiment of appreciation for the kindness of the distinguished chairman of the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee and the insight which his actions reflect in yielding to this subcommittee on this important matter of jurisdiction at the last session of the Congress. Sometimes those jurisdictional disputes are not so easily settled.

I say we want to thank you, sir, for making it possible for us to deal with this subject definitively.

Mr. ASPINALL. May I reply to my good friend from Virginia that it was a pleasure to yield, under the circumstances. The bill came to our committee because of our jurisdiction over territorial matters. When we found that we were involved in a jurisdictional matter, that there was another committee more learned in the provisions of this particular section of the bill than our committee could possibly be, it was the natural thing for us to do. We try to do that with all committees. Once in a while, though, because of this complicated operation in Congress, we do get mixed up in jurisdictional matters, but we do not do it intentionally.

Mr. CHELF. I would like to associate myself with the statement of the gentleman from Virginia, if you will permit me to do so. I, too, am very much pleased. I feel that we have, if anything, a deeper and a more sincere and lasting obligation upon ourselves here, since the gentleman has been so magnanimous and so cooperative and helpful, to go into this thing as carefully as we possibly can. For one, I want to express my sincere appreciation to the gentleman for his cooperation, his courtesy, and his kindness. I can assure him, speaking for myself and I feel the other members will join with me that this is a matter that needs deep study of the committee. While I have never heretofore seen fit to want to fly out into the Pacific, I have had many occasions as a member of this committee to have gone to many places across the Atlantic, busy doing something else, but this is one time I believe I would like really and sincerely to go take a look and see what makes this end of the world tick.

I think I would be far better able to legislate as a result of such a trip. I appreciate what the gentleman has said in this respect. Mr. ASPINALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. POFF. I believe without stretching my imagination unduly I could suggest one example of the sort of jurisdictional dispute to which the gentleman made reference a moment ago, but since it would not

be altogether pertinent to this inquiry, I will not do so. He knows what I mean.

Mr. ASPINALL. I understand.

Mr. POFF. I do not want to labor the point raised by the gentleman from West Virginia, and certainly I do not want the witness to misunderstand our questions, but you have indicated it is a vitally important question; namely, the question about what would best promote the uplifting of the people of the trust territory. We have had considerable experience with the effects of the exchange program, with which the gentleman is familiar. As the gentleman knows, under that program highly skilled people come to this country from foreign nations and serve a period of time in which they increase their mastery of their skill, with the thought in mind that they would return to their native country and serve there for a minimum period of 2 years before they would become eligible for immigrant visas, the thought being that in that 2-year period they could apply the new skills they have acquired in the United States.

Those who take advantage of this program do so under a contract and with the understanding that they cannot be an immigrant until they have served this period of time helping their own fellow citizens.

Does the gentleman feel that the grant of an unusual status so far as other nations are concerned, to the citizens of the trust territory, with the possibility of naturalization after the end of the permanent residence period, would better enable the citizens of the trust territory to perform this mission for their fellow citizens than the exchange program?

Mr. ASPINALL. I would think under the circumstances, Mr. Poff, a bill such as this would work more to the interest of the United States proper as well as to the interest of these people who are neither citizens nor nationals, than would the exchange program. We have involved here the final question of what is to happen to this area. All of us believe in the right of people to determine their own destiny. As Mr. Gill said, these people are afloat out there in the Pacific without ties. First the Spanish, then the Germans, then the Japanese, and now the people of the United States have had control and jurisdiction over them. We are the first country that has endeavored to bring to them a philosophy on which they could make a decision. All the other ideologies have been forced upon them.

I am not saying they were mistreated under any of them. I think, in some respects, economically they were far better off under the Japanese than they are under the United States, at least to date, because the Japanese had programs and they made these people a part of them and paid them wages and saw to it that they got food, that they were brought into their way of living on the islands, not in Japan but on the islands. This runs throughout their current operations. People of that generation speak Japanese fluently.

We are doing something else. Money alone will not do this job. Money spent in this area, as has been suggested by a commission that went out there, will not do the job that we want done.

Mr. POFF. As I understand the exchange program, it is possible, so long as a program number remains available, to prolong the stay of the alien in this country up to 5 years, and in some special circumstances beyond that time. Does the gentleman feel that in that 5-year

period it would be possible for citizens of the trust territory to assimilate enough of our culture to take it back to their people?

Mr. ASPINALL. I would not argue with my friend on this particular matter of time or procedure. I simply do not think the procedure is the right procedure to use in the treatment of people who have been placed under our control by a mandate.

Mr. POFF. I appreciate the gentleman's viewpoint. I think he has discussed it very well indeed. We are grateful for your contribution.

Mr. ASPINALL. Thank you.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Mr. Moore?

Mr. MOORE. Pursuing a little further with the gentleman from Colorado the question that I posed to the gentleman from Hawaii concerning immigration to the United States and the seemingly high percentage relative to the rest of the world, is it the gentleman's understanding that the figure-I believe you were present in the committee room at the time I inquired of the gentleman from Hawaiithat total migration to the United States represented about 2 percent of the total population of the trust territory reflected travel to Hawaii and the continental limits of the United States and did not represent travel between, say, Saipan and Guam?

Mr. ASPINALL. May I say to my friend from West Virginia, I do not have this answer. I was trying to figure out in my own mind here, by simple arithmetic, what I thought it meant. The gentleman may have some figures that I do not have. As I figure out the possibility of travel back and forth by the means that are presently available to these people, I think that this includes the visitations to Saipan and Guam, from Saipan to Guam, back and forth.

Mr. MOORE. I appreciate the gentleman's qualification of his answer. I asked my question based upon statistics available to us reciting visa issuances by the Department of State. I think truly it does reflect entry to Hawaii or the continental limits of the United States, and does not specifically refer to the Guam-Saipan relationship. In order that we might have a proper understanding of what this figure means and so that we might have a complete understanding of just how much travel there is between the trust territory and the United States, either Hawaii or the continental limits of the United States, I think we ought to inquire of the Department of State as to the total number and have them appear before us to give us a statement of what these figures actually mean, and also to alert the Immigration Service if it is possible for them to accumulate some data concerning those that come to the United States from the trust territory on a nonimmigrant basis, what their past history has been as to their willingness to return or what the pattern of their returning to the trust territory has been.

I ask that because it may very well serve to answer partially the question the gentleman from Virginia and the gentleman from Colorado in his response discussed immediately previous to my question. I know it will prove somewhat difficult for the Immigration Service to keep track of when they come in, but we can get some general feel if we get these numbers figured out, because if this 2 percent figure is not reflected, then I think we would want the record clearly to state that it is not a fact that the figure includes merely travel from,

as I say in the example, Saipan to Guam. I think that would immeasurably help us as we consider the problem.

I thank the gentleman from Colorado.

I yield to the gentleman from Virginia.

Mr. POFF. Mr. Chairman, since I asked the last question, another one occurred to me. I hope you will pardon me.

I believe it would be possible under present law to parole a worker or student from the trust territory into the United States for a season of time in which he could master skills that are needed in the trust territory. This, I repeat, would be under present law. Something similar to this program was utilized in 1962 when I believe about 1,500 workers were brought from the trust territory and the Philippines into Guam.

Would the gentleman think that approach might be useful?

Mr. ASPINALL. I think it is useful and I think we are following that procedure at the present time. There are trust territory residents in the United States at the present time studying under certain procedures which are permitted to them, but this gives them very little freedom of action and very little freedom of determination of what they are going to do next year or the year following.

I think this is what is involved in this legislation, to try to bring this closer relationship between the people over which we have so much to say so far as their future determinations are concerned. Mr. POFF. Thank you.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Aspinall. We appreciate your testimony.

Mr. ASPINALL. Thank you, sir.

(Mr. Kabua's statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF AMATA KABUA SUBMITTED TO SUBCOMMITTEE No. 1 OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, JUNE 9, 1964

Honorable chairman and committee members, I am grateful for the privilege extended me to comment on section 2 of H.R. 3198, having been deleted and reincorporated in H.R. 7556, extending the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands the benefits of section 301 of the Tariff Act of 1930. I am most pleased to say that this legislation is a major step taken by the administering authority to promote the economic and social welfare of the people of the trust territory.

If enacted, this bill, which provides for the people of the trust territory freedom of moving in and out of the United States, will favorably create a condition whereby the inhabitants will be better assisted in their striving for their progress and place in this complex world. The effect of this section will be especially vital in providing the people with better opportunities for the pursuit of new and broader knowledge and values needed in shaping their own destiny along with the free

world.

The trust territory will soon be confronted with the problem of its future status. Whether the decision will be for incorporation with the United States, independence, or affiliation with other nations, democracy only advocates freedom of choice. Surely, any status to be contemplated upon will be subject to certain adversities and skepticism, some of which do currently prevail. However, the fact should not preclude any desire, creative and foresighted thinking on the part of both the United States and the trust territory to mutually bring about closer understanding and perpetuate warm friendship between their two peoples. I strongly believe this to be extremely important as these virtues cannot be surpassed as the best assurance against any anomalous and undersired circumstances in the future. Effective cultivation of closer understanding and friendship is only possible through proper education and contacts amongst the two peoples. In most cases, many of our young men and women have been prevented from coming to seek higher education in the United States because certain laws prohibit them from obtaining gainful employment for financial support. This

legislation is considered to be essentially an important one as it will alleviate the presently existing situation and enable our future leaders to attain skills and wisdoms in your great country.

It is only reasonable that questions are raised as to the possibility of the trust territory losing its best people in the future by virtue of this legislation, thus its enactment may prove detrimental. While it is very difficult to predict the consequences in the course of a distant future, one can fairly reason that it would be equally difficult for a Micronesian to leave his tropical islands and his easy way of living for taking up permanent residency in an advanced and more complicated society. Whether it is because of financial reason, lack of confidence, or love of home, climate, environment, or the people, one can only guess. A number of young Micronesians had spent 3 to 5 years in the United States for the purpose of furthering their education and serving in the U.S. Armed Forces. All of these people returned home with the exception of a few, who will certainly be returning in the not too distant future. Also, it seems that when a person of any nationality has stayed in the trust territory for a year or so, it would be almost impossible for him to leave. It is especially true in the case of the U.S. civil servants in the trust territory government. Some of them have lived in the territory for nearly 20 years; and some are past due for retirement but still hang on to their jobs to remain in the islands.

However, while this appears to be the case, any remote possibility of an insignificant number of Micronesians wanting to reside permantntly in the United States should not be ruled out. Although, in all probabilities, only a few cases of permanent residency in the United States may be a reality 20 years from now; not unless otherwise forced by loss of land by phenomenal catastrophies or other causes will a substantial number of Micronesians attempt to find new homes abroad.

Mr. Chairman, I deeply appreciate the opportunity given me to express my views regarding this important bill and hope that the Congress will consider it favorably as it is greatly needed for the advancement of the citizens of the trust territory.

Thank you.

STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS P. GILL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF HAWAII (Recalled)

Mr. FEIGHAN. I would like to ask Mr. Gill to step forward, please. Inasmuch as he has also introduced H.R. 7730, without relation to the subject matter just concluded, I would like to ask one or two questions with relation to H.R. 7730.

Mr. GILL. This is a bill identical to that introduced by Chairman Celler, H.R. 7700.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Yes. I wonder what priority of importance you would attach to reuniting families under your proposal in H.R.7730. Mr. GILL. I am more inclined to lean on the admission of people who are technically competent and who would be of help to our society. Reuniting families, particularly when you deal with the various Chinese quotas and the Asian Pacific triangle quota, is very important to Hawaii. I do not want to skew my remarks because of local interest. I do think the important part of the bill as introduced is that we do not ask a person, "What color skin or hair do your parents have?" We only ask him, "What can you do for us if you are to come to our country and be part of us?"

I think that is really the key to it.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Of course, there are priorities set up in your bill; are there not?

Mr. GILL. As I recall.

Mr. FEIGHAN. What priority of importance would you assign to reuniting or uniting families?

Mr. GILL. Sir, I do not know whether I would put this first or second, frankly. This is a matter which it seems to me does not go