authorized in the Clarke-McNary Act of June 7, 1924 and requested in this amendment will fall short of meeting anything comparable to a 50-50 cooperation as set forth in the act.

This increase is urgently recommended as a means of adequately protecting one of the valuable resources of the Nation.

FOREST RESEARCH

On page 47, line 12, it is recommended that the figure $620,994 be struck out and the amount $660,903 be inserted in lieu thereof.

This increase of $39,909 was recommended by the Bureau of the Budget but was not included in the bill when reported by the House Committee on Agricultural Appropriations and passed by the House.

This increase is proposed to include an additional $9,909 for investigations in the management of piñon pine and juniper, and other woodland types of forest growth in the Southwest. The forests of this region are valuable to the farmers and ranchers not only as sources of fuel, fence posts, and corral poles, but also in protecting the watersheds of the area. It is essential that means be developed whereby the relatively sparse forest growth in the woodland areas of the Southwest may be encouraged and increased.

It would also provide $15,000 to develop means for converting the brush fields of northern California into valuable timber stands, and another $15,000 for developing methods of planting and reforesting some 15,000 acres of seriously eroding lands in the Central States. This last item has been described by State Forester Edmund Secrest of Ohio, as one that is fundamental and much needed. It is understood that the studies contemplated would be directed toward the development of efficient and successful methods of reforesting with broadleaf or other hardwood species. Thus far the major portion of all forest planting has been done with pines, spruces, and other conifers. The Central States region is a natural hardwood area, and means need to be developed whereby these 15,000 acres of seriously eroding lands may be restocked with commercially important broadleaf trees.

Senator RUSSELL. We will meet again at 10:30 on Monday morning. (Thereupon, at 4:50 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until Monday, May 3, 1937, at 10:30 a. m.)

AGRICULTURAL DEPARTMENT APPROPRIATION BILL, 1938

MONDAY, MAY 3, 1937

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS,

Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10:30 a. m. in the committee room, Capitol, Hon. Richard B. Russell, Jr., presiding. Present: Senators Russell (chairman), Smith, Hayden, Copeland, Bankhead, Truman, Duffy, Nye, and Townsend.

FOREST SERVICE

STATEMENT OF T. W. NORCROSS, CHIEF, DIVISION OF ENGINEERING

FOREST ROADS AND TRAILS

Senator HAYDEN. Mr. Chairman, the item to be considered is on page 100, forest roads and trails, wherein the Budget estimate was $14,000,000, and the House allowed $11,000,000.

For the purpose of the record, I desire to have printed section 2 of the act approved June 16, 1936, entitled "An act to amend the Federal Aid Highway Act, approved July 11, 1916, as amended and supplemented, and for other purposes." That is the authorization for the fiscal year 1938 and the fiscal year 1939. It reads as follows:

SEC. 2. For the purpose of carrying out the provisions of section 23 of the Federal Highway Act of 1921 there is hereby authorized to be appropriated for forest highways, roads, and trails the following sums, to be available until expended in accordance with the provisions of said section 23: The sum of $14,000,000 for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1938; the sum of $14,000,000 for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1939: Provided, That one-third, but not less than $3,000,000, of the appropriation made for any fiscal year for carrying out the provisions of said section 23 may hereafter be expended for the purposes enumerated in the first paragraph of clause (a) of said section 23.

This fund of $14,000,000 is divided into two groups, one for forest highways, and the other for forest roads and trails.

Senator TOWNSEND. What is the difference between forest highways and forest roads and trails?

Senator HAYDEN. Will you answer that question, Mr. Norcross? Mr. NORCROSs. Yes, sir. In each class, that is either the forest highways or the development roads and trails, service must be rendered to the administration, protection, or development of the forest lands and resources. The forest highways are those forest roads which have greater value or importance for public travel than for the forests themselves. The development roads and trails are of primary value for the protection, development, and administration of the forest land

or resources.

Senator HAYDEN. Is there not some general division with respect to the cost of roads? My understanding was if a road cost more than $5,000 per mile, there was a provision of law directing that the work be done by contract and under the supervision of the Bureau of Public Roads; that in the case of the forest development roads which cost less than that, and in the case of the trails, the work was done by the Forest Service itself. Please explain that distinction.

Mr. NORCROSS. That is substantially right, Senator. Under the basic law which is section 23 of the Federal Highway Act, provision is made that if the estimated cost will exceed $5,000 per mile, exclusive of bridges, the job will be put up for bids by contractors. Otherwise, it could be handled by day labor, or it might be contracted. Beyond that, there is a regulation controlling what work may be handled by the Forest Service itself, and that which may be handled by the Bureau of Public Roads. For the development of roads, the Forest Service handles the work if the average cost per mile of the project is estimated as $5,000 or less; if more than $5,000, the Bureau handles the work. In practice, that means that since the road standard is very low on these development roads and trails the Forest Service handles nearly all the work. The Forest highway standard is high. Accordingly the Bureau of Public Roads does practically all the engineering and supervises the contract work.

Senator TOWNSEND. Who determines the standard?

Mr. NORCROss. The Forest Service determines the standard for the development of truck trails and trails.

Senator TOWNSEND. Who determines the different kinds of roads? Mr. NORCROSs. Whether or not a road is necessary to the forest is determined by the Forest Service. Then which of the forest roads would be of greater importance to the public travel than for the forests is determined by the Bureau of Public Roads and the Forest Service. That is, they make the recommendation, and the final determination is made by the Secretary of Agriculture.

Senator HAYDEN. Both Bureaus being in the same department? Mr. NORCROSS. Yes; the State highway departments also advise and assist.

Senator RUSSELL. What is the mileage of the roads under your supervision?

Mr. NORCROSS. We make our plans, Senator Russell, on the basis of the transportation that will be needed within a period of 10 years following the date of estimate. The entire planned system includes 23,380 miles of forest highways

Senator RUSSELL. That is the planned system?

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir; that is the planned system of forest high

ways.

Senator TOWNSEND. Do you mean that this 23,000 miles is what is needed to complete the forest roads?

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir; for forest highways. Fifty-two percent of that mileage has been completed to satisfactory standard. Of the development truck trails or roads, 102,569 miles are needed, and that system is 44 percent completed. In the case of the trails themselves-foot and horse trails-154,228 miles are needed, and that system is 78 percent completed.

Senator TOWNSEND. Approximately what is the life of these roads? Mr. NORCROSS. With proper maintenance, they will last forever; but the larger amount of travel and increased use of the forest land

and resources sometimes make necessary relocation and reconstruction to higher standards.

Senator TOWNSEND. How is the maintenance charge taken care of? Mr. NORCROSS. The maintenance of the forest highways is financed from the Federal fund during the first 2 years after the contract has been completed. That is really a finishing of construction. After that, acting as provided in a cooperative agreement, the State or the county takes it over. Development truck trails and trails ordinarily are maintained from the Federal fund; but, as frequently as we can, provision is made to get the county to finance the work.

Senator HAYDEN. With respect to the forest highways, does the Forest Service receive any substantial contribution either from the States or from the counties toward the original construction of such roads?

Mr. NORCROSS. The amount of cooperation is running about $600,000 now, Senator.

Senator HAYDEN. $600,000 a year?

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir; $600,000 a year. That is given to us for expenditure. Besides that, a large amount is expended by various States and counties, entirely without regard to what we are doing. Senator HAYDEN. Your expenditure last year on forest highways was how much?

Mr. NORCROss. For forest highways $9,299,939; for development roads and trails $3,222,075, a total of $12,522,014. Cooperators provided an additional $596,321. The forest road and trail expenditure for the fiscal year 1937 including unexpended balances in regular and emergency appropriations will run about $12,540,000.

Senator RUSSELL. What proportion of that is for maintenance, Mr. Norcross, and what proportion is for new construction? Mr. NORCROss. Do you want the figures for 1937?

Senator RUSSELL. Yes. (After a pause:) Well, give us the amount; you do not have to give the percentage. What amount has been spent for maintenance, and what amount for new construction? (After a further pause:) Do you not budget these funds, and make estimates as to how you are going to spend them-how much for new construction, and how much for maintenance?

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir; we do. I can give that to you roughly from memory.

Senator HAYDEN. Please do that.

Mr. NORCROss. About $3,500,000 for maintenance, and the remaining $9,000,000 for construction. For the fiscal year 1938, the estimated maintenance expenditure is about $4,100,000 out of a total of from $14,000,000 to $14,500,000.

Senator HAYDEN. There is a distinction, however. The $3,500,000 that you mentioned for maintenance is for maintenance for all purposes of all kinds of roads, whether they be forest highways or forest roads or trails.

Mr. NORCROSs. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. As to the forest highways, there is an original expenditure made, and then the road is maintained for 2 years, after which the maintenance of a forest highway is transferred to the States or the counties.

Mr. NORCROSs. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. So that the bulk of the $3,500,000 to which you refer relates to the maintenance of the roads and trails which are built primarily for fire protection and the development of the forests. I correct in that?

Mr. NORCROSs. That is right.

Am

Senator HAYDEN. Roughly, what part of the $3,500,000 would go to highways, and what part would go to roads and trails?

Mr. NORCROSs. For the fiscal year 1937 about $670,000 will go for maintenance of the forest highways, $2,000,000 for development of roads and truck trails, and the balance for horse and foot trails.

Senator HAYDEN. That would be the work done during the 2 years before you turn the $670,000 for forest highways over to the States or counties?

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir; for forest highways, during the 2-year period.

Senator HAYDEN. And then not quite $3,000,000 must be used annually for maintenance of the roads and trails that are built entirely at the expense of the Government, and are designed to protect the forests against fires and to get out timber?

Mr. NORCROSs. That is right, for the fiscal year 1937.

Senator HAYDEN. As you expand the road and trail system each year, your maintenance will expand?

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir. The estimated expenditure, fiscal year 1938, for the development of truck-trail and trail maintenance is about $3,500,000.

Senator HAYDEN. That, Mr. Chairman, is the reason why it developed in the hearings before the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, when we made a further authorization, that practically all of the $3,000,000 that was then authorized by law for forest roads and trails was required for maintenance, just as Mr. Norcross testified, and that they could not build any new roads; the amount would all be eaten up in maintenance.

I should like to read to the committee, and have go into the record, the original authorization for roads and trails.

Senator TOWNSEND. Let me ask one question before you start to do that.

Senator HAYDEN. Certainly.

Senator TOWNSEND. The Government maintains the roads for 2 years. What would happen to your system if the States and counties should fail to provide maintenance for your roads after that?

Mr. NORCROSS. The system would go to pieces, and the investment in construction and betterment lost.

Senator TOWNSEND. What assurance have you that the States and counties will do that?

Mr. NORCROSS. We have a cooperative agreement for each project. Most of the agreements are with the State highway departments. They are quite reliable; and these forest highways are so important that they have to be kept up. Occasionally we might have a case where a county would fall down; but at all times it knows that unless it comes through with its obligations there may not be any help on other roads that it needs and for which it wants Federal assistance. Senator HAYDEN. Is the situation any different than that with respect to regular Federal aid? There is a provision of law that the Federal Government shall expend no money whatsoever on maintenance of a State highway. We contribute to this road construction,