down than the public-house whose and as a salutary example the effect licence you have taken be away? will

The

much do greater. What On this club question my views are we find in the Camberwell Club? entirely independent, because I am That club advertised: " Sunday morning, proud to say that in Liverpool, the com- lecture upon the Principles of Malthus. plexion of which has been Conservative Sunday afternoon, musical comedy, "The for many years, there is no single working Hypocrites." How does this champion, men's club where drink can be obtained this convinced advocate of the cause of to-day or has ever been obtained, effective moral reform at the admitted but I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite injury of investors, deal with this matter who hold strong moral views on this when assailed in the Press? He wrote subject what they think of the position a letter to the Daily Telegraph in which of their colleagues who represent London he said that if the parson could not com constituencies. I do not hesitate to pete for his patronage with "Iolanthe," say that, sitting cheek by jowl with so much the worse for the parson. Hon. these moral reformers, are men who Gentlemen opposite cannot afford to owe their seats in this House to the deal with the clubs. They dare not. exertions of political clubs which, al- Their political lives are not worth though they are not drinking clubs, moment's purchase if they do. are places where drink is supplied with explanation is that in dealing with the the same facility with which it is supplied English people you are dealing with a in public-houses, and where it can be strong, virile race. The reason why you obtained at hours when public-houses cannot compel them to reduce their clubs are closed and on Sundays as well. and why in this Bill you shrink from They deserve careful study. Take, for dealing with them is that you know that instance, the case of Walthamstow the people in a domocratic country will Liberal and Radical Club. I believe not allow you to do it, and when you the hon. Member who represents Wal- admit that in connection with the clubs, thamstow is a convinced supporter of you have driven the last nail into the this Bill and he is satisfied with Sunday coffin of the present Bill. The Chanclosing. How are his supporters generat- cellor of the Exchequer talks about going ing their zeal on his behalf and amusing down with all the ship's flags flying. themselves on Sunday mornings at The ship, I would suggest, is the s.s. the Walthamstow Liberal and Radical "The Whited Sepulchre," and has the Club, Buxton Road, High Street? Here" Jolly Roger" flying from the mast. is the programme of a Sunday morning variety entertainment: Young Smiler; Dora Dalby; The Campeons; Sam Williams; Daisy Reed; Chan C. Roberts. On Sunday evening there is George Elmer's Company in the up-to-date military comedy "The Major." Then what do we find in the constituency of the Parlia-" The voice of beer." Where is the mentary Secretary to the Admiralty, who played a conspicuous, though hardly a successful, part in the Peckham election. At the North Camberwell Radical Club we find entertainments are going on in precisely the same way. The Parliamentary Secretary is the President of the Club, and I would suggest to the Government, that the President instead of the Secretary shall pay the fine of £20 for which the Bill provides, if drunkenness is proved on the premises and reasonable care is not shown. There will be much more chance of obtaining the money,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he
would rather lose fifty seats than win
one by such means as those by which
Peckham was won, and hon. Gentlemen
shouted their agreement with that state-
ment when a new Member, a teetotaller,
entered this House, by shouting out,

evidence of the drunkenness which it is
said existed at Peckham? Where is the
petition that ought to have followed?
Are the party funds depleted? There
were only two convictions of drunkenness
on the day of the election at Peckham,
and in one the gentleman charged ex-
plained that he was really developing a
Free Trade argument, a defence which
was unsuccessful; while in the other, the
person, a lady, was a stranger to Peck-
ham who had been the heroine of similar
adventures elsewhere. That
was the
only drunkenness that took place at
Peckham. Was Manchester
won by

It

with

improper measures? Hon. Gentlemen | guards, with longer hours, and with less know perfectly well that I am not re- supervision than licensed houses. peating these victories we have won to must go beyond that. It must stand make in this House a cheap party score. or fall on the decision of this House as I only refer to these elections in order to to whether it is just or not as a financial press on the right hon. Gentlemen oppo- measure. The Prime Minister yestersite whether the experiences in these day, as well as on the First Reading, constituencies are not certain to be re- stated his case with the greatest lucidity. peated all over the country as long as The financial provision of this Bill is to this Bill is persevered with. It is certain recover for the State the monopoly valuethat it will be so, because the country is with which it has parted and the right not convinced of the honesty and in- hon. Gentleman asked the question yestertegrity of the Bill. You are under a day, "Do you agree that the State has a great delusion when you think that you right to resume the value with which it are great moral reformers and that that has once parted?" The word " resume is the cause of these reverses. Hon. is the word upon which I should like to Gentlemen opposite will do well, if the speak, because it has not yet been proved Bill is to be persevered in, to play a that the State has parted neglectfully losing game with more decency and self- or otherwise with a monopoly value. respect, for they will be given an oppor- The State has stood idly by while the tunity of exhibiting dignity in adversity monopoly has been bought and sold, in Opposition. The democratic party while millions have been invested in it when successful at the polls praises the on the strength of the indifference of the people as the supreme repositories of State to that monopoly, and besides all political wisdom. When defeated they that it has levied a special taxation upon point to the crapulous dupes of an the licensed trade as a trade specially odious trade. Hon. Members opposite favoured of the State. Now, having should turn from this misconceived seen that the monopoly value measure to the music-hall bonhomie which they have parted is a good thing, and the unrestricted conviviality they propose to resume it. The State of those Radical clubs to which made a mistake. Most people when they owe their present opportunities for they make a mistake have to pay mischief. If they do that, history will for it. The State made a mistake in not indeed say they were moral re- parting with this monopoly value. formers, but at least it will not have to It is not the brewers nor the publican record of them that, boking in the clouds, nor those humble investors who have not they scorned received too much consideration who are to blame, but the State, first and last. It might have retained its monopoly value, but it parted with it on easy terms. MR. A. E. W. MASON (Coventry): I do not suggest that the State has not The Prime Minister and the Under- a right to resume the monopoly value Secretary for Home Affairs yesterday if it chooses, but it is for the House to evening devoted a considerable por- consider whether the State shall not do tion of their speeches to the question so with fairness to the community over of the reduction of licences. I cannot which it rules, and which it is supposed hold, and I do not think the majority to represent. I listened very carefully of the Members of this House can hold, that the present Bill can stand or fall upon the question of the reduction of licences. It must stand or fill on other questions. It must stand or fall upon the question of whether the reduction of licences is accompanied with the reduction of, and an erection of safeguards against, other institutions for the sale of drink already existing with fewer precautions, under fewer safe

"The base degrees

By which they did ascend."

to the speech made by the SolicitorGeneral, and I think he repeated to-day what he certainly said on the First Reading when he discussed the question of the monopoly value, waving aside the question of where the millions of money paid for the monopoly value had gone to. I do not see the relevancy of his suggestion, unless he assumes that the money so paid at once goes back to the pockets of the people who pay it. I do not wish to

be provided for in fourteen

years is

refer to a particular public-house to raise a cheap laugh; but I think he £21,076,640. Therefore it is calculated could have found where some of the that if the whole amount was capitalised money went to by consulting his collea- at the end of fourteen years on the basis gue the Secretary of State for War. This of all the profits being invested at 4 money has gone out of the licensed per cent. compound interest, with the trade and the State is now going to exception of the payment on the deben compel those who have already paid tures, the actual loss at the end of for the licensed premises once to pay fourteen years will be £8,729,000—that, over again. The really relevant ques- of course, is if the State resumes the tion is not who has got the money but monopoly value. That is the point of who paid the money for these licences. view that any accountant would have I have not the slightest hesitation in to take up. As I understand, the State believing that the persons who paid for does intend to resume the monopoly them once will pay again. The hon. value. I quite admit that one of the and learned Gentleman shakes his head, dfficulties in this matter is that we have but I do not see how he is going to avoid not had a proper definition of what is it unless he proposes to ruin all the exist- monopoly value. The Under-Secretary ing breweries and put up a new lot in for Home Affairs did begin to tell us their stead. I intended to ask the Prime something with regard to that. He said Minister whether during these debates it was not to include the profit of the he would kindly lay upon the Table the publican or of the brewer, but that figures that enabled him to arrive at the it was to include the goodwill. I decision that fourteen years would be should be glad if some member of the ́an effective limit of time, but it was with Government speaking with an authorisome consternation that I gathered there tative voice, would take some concrete were no figures. The Solicitor-General instance of the market value of parthis afternoon said that others might ticular licensed premises and tell us, avoid this question but that he would not. on the assumption that the value of those premises remains the same at the end of fourteen years, what it is the intention of the Government that the licence holder should be paid at the end of fourteen years. In discuss· ing the monopoly value certainly hampered on

SIR SAMUEL EVANS interjected a remark that did not reach the Gallery.

MR. A. E. W. MASON: I quite accept that, but I might point out to the hon. and learned Gentleman that the whole question is the time-limit. I have some figures which I should like to read to the House. They present a startling summary of what is going to happen to nine brewery companies if this Bill as it stands becomes law. I have chosen nine breweries, some of which are good and flourishing, and others of which are not in a flourshing condition. I have done so deliberately, because I think the system of selecting a certain number of good breweries and saying: "See how easily they can recoup themselves," or selecting certain languishing concerns and saying: "See how easily they can be ruined," is not a fair one. Of the nine breweries, the total capital at the present time is £28,230,391; the estimated value of the capital invested in freehold and leasehold licensed property where the licences are extinguished would be £5,269,000. The loss of capital to

we are

that point.

Now, I want to say a few words on another question, the question of compensation, and here I agree with a good deal of what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin, that we are in a more difficult position, because the Bill is not quite a financial measure or quite a temperance reform measure. It is an unfortunate blend. I believe that if the Government had gone on the question of the reduction of licences alone, they would have got all the reductions they wanted, without much objection from anybody, so long as the monopoly value was retained. It depends very much on what is put first and foremost, the temperance side or the financial side. So long as you are going to resume the monopoly value, it is impossible that any loan could be floated in time to pay off the monopoly value

in the same way as it could be done with regard to clubs demands more if the monopoly value remained the consideration and more stringent legislasame. I am not going to argue the tion. I know perfectly well that when principle of compensation. It is accepted one speaks about clubs one is on rather in the Bill, and that being so it should be dangerous ground, and one has to speak fair. The Prime Minister referred to the very carefully. But none the less, I practice of the United States and the think that there is a great deal that Colonies, and told us that in those ought to be said. I am not in the posicountries licences were wiped out without tion of the hon. Member for the Walton compensation. But it might be pointed Division, who can take a perfectly inout that there was a great deal of differ- dependent line, being a Member of the ence in the stringency of the laws of Conservative Party, which does not the United States and the Colonies believe very strongly, if indeed at all, and the laws of this country. I in the reduction of licences, or that the do not, however, think there is any reduction of facilities will have much thing in that point, because there is effect on drunkenness in the country. only one precedent for us, and that is I am one of those who stand in a different the law of this country and the prin- position. I do believe that the ciple which lies below it, which is that growth of a certain kind of club is in the case of any compulsory expropria- becoming a very great menace and tion compensation shall be given, and danger to the State. I believe it that the compensation shall be generous. is a perfectly well known fact that Then in regard to compensation, the since this Bill was introduced nearly Government have taken Schedule A. as every brewing company in a populous its basis. But it does not take Schedule city has been approached by people A. when it has to make money for itself, who wish to have clubs financed. because it will go back once more to the It is clear, therefore, that in the estimaprinciple of the market value. That tion of a great many people the safedoes not seem to me quite fair. I think guards provided in this Bill are not that the same basis ought to be applied sufficient. We have been told that in each case. I think that where the Amendments will be welcomed. I State is going to provide compensation think it is very regrettable that those it ought to be as fair as though it was extra safeguards were not inserted by going to make money for itself. I have the Government on its own authority. heard it put forward many times in Certainly, I do not see clear enough this House, and it is universally ad- provisions in this Bill to show that the mitted, that the State should be a model entertainments which are held at clubs employer. But it is not only in matters are going to be suppressed. Too much, of employment that the State should be to my mind, is left to the licensing a model. The State ought also to be magistrates. There are, of course, very a model arbitrator, especially when it good clubs. We have got some in my own is going to arbitrate for its own advan- constituency-some of them I know perIt is said that public-houses have fectly well-that are very well conducted. been under-assessed. Very likely that They do not have those entertainments is true. But I think that if you want which are becoming a subject of scandal. them assessed at their proper value, The whole problem of the danger which a very much better way would be to I wish to point out is connected with adopt the principle of assessment with affiliation. If you look at the advertiseregard to death duties; then people ments in the paper called Club Life, it is will feel that the assessment is on a better always the point of affiliation which is scale. The hon. and learned Member mentioned, and for my part, if you are a for the Walton Division of Liverpool member of a well-conducted club, I referred to the question of clubs, and I cannot see why you should want to give must say that I thoroughly agree with the run of your rooms to 1,250 other him in the view he expressed that the clubs. I think that if the Government attitude taken in this Bill in regard were to drop some of these minor preto clubs is not satisfactory. I think cautions which are calculated to vex wellthat the evidence put before the country conducted clubs and would deal with

the great problem of affiliation, which troduce some clauses into this Bill which is the great danger, they would be doing will make it more just as a piece of very much more good in regard to clubs finance, and more adequate as a measure than by the present proposals. You have of temperance reform. at some of these clubs what is practically a music hall entertainment; or, if a MR. JAMES PARKER (Halifax): club is in proximity to the ground where I have been surprised by the amount of there is a football match, the advertise- attention that has been paid to the ment which appears in the papers is financial aspect of the measure and by accompanied by the suggestion that the small amount of attention which has "affiliated members will be welcome." been paid to the question of temper From the frequency of that statement ance reform. I give to the Bill I cannot help feeling that this is an in its general character whatever supinvitation to drink upon unlicensed port is possible by my vote and premises. The Under-Secretary for the voice both inside of this House Home Department told us last night and outside. I do not, however, take that every public-house was an advertise- exactly the same point of view with ment of drink. I want to point out also regard to some of the clauses of the Bill that every ill-regulated club is a secret which many Members take. I believe opportunity to drink, and if you are that the restriction of the number of going to have drink you might just as licences does tend to reduce drunkenness, well have it as much as possible on despite the recent statement of the hon. licensed premises under proper control. and learned Member for the Walton After all, those who live in small towns Division that there are no statistics to know that the man who goes too often prove that fact. But we know that there to the public-house becomes a marked are statistics which at least prove that the man in his community, but if he goes convictions for drunkenness have been into a club many more times than into materially reduced since the Act of 1904 a public-house he is not noticed at all. was brought into operation. I want For these reasons I hope that some however this afternoon to deal with the more practical steps will be taken-steps other portion of the Bill, which I support which will not at all damage clubs which right through to the end, though I trust exist for social intercourse, but which that some arrangement will be made will prevent the creation of unlicensed whereby it will be possible for those who public-houses. I have spoken with very hold a different position to be able to great plainness this afternoon; I stand support the Bill right through the whole in the unusual position that in this matter of the clauses. What are the facts with I do not see eye to eye with the rest of respect to the drinking clubs of this my party, with which I am very ardently country? We have had a very graphic in general sympathy. I regret the position picture drawn of wicked Radical clubs. which I have to take, but I think that I know all kinds of working-men's clubs. it is best to state the facts. I recognise, I know working-men's clubs which are we all do, of course, that there are great a disgrace to their name, and I know clauses in this Bill, but I rely upon working-men's clubs which have been the Government taking a little more of real benefit to temperance. I should upon its own shoulders and leaving less like briefly to quote from the balanceon the shoulders of the magistrates. I sheet of the largest working-men's club noticed a sign of that last night. The in England and possibly in the world. Under-Secretary, in reference to the The town of which I am one of the reprebarmaids, suggested that to prevent sentatives is probably one of the largest hardship there should be devised some club towns in the United Kingdom, and form of certificate to be given to ante- I think it will be true to say that the 1908 barmaids. I would do nothing to statistics of drunkenness in that town disparage a sex which I revere, but I would bear favourable comparison with fear that, ten years hence, the ante-1908 those of any manufacturing town of barmaids will not be very anxious to similar size. Now in this one club to show their certificates. I sincerely which I refer there are 10,986 members. hope that the Prime Minister will in- It is not an ordinary working-men's club