Case of Mr. C. W. Allan, Indian Forest Service. SIR SEYMOUR KING (Hull, Central): To ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State's attention has been directed to the Memorial addressed to him of Mr. C. W. Allan, an extra Deputy Conservator of Forests in the Burma provincial service; whether Mr. Allan, after passing through the college at Dehra Dun joined the Indian forest service on 1st February, 1887, at a time when it was provided by Section 21 of the then Forest Department Code that after five years approved service as Sub-assistant Conservator of Forests he would be drafted into the upper controlling staff; whether, in 1891, the Government issued a new Forest Department Reorganisation Scheme debarring all officers thenceforward appointed in India from promotion to the upper controlling staff, and whether, having done four years of admittedly approved service, the new scheme was by ex post facto ruling arbitrarily applied to Mr. Allan's case; whether recently the Secretary of State for India has sanctioned the transfer of Mr. Shrish Chandra Chakrabatti from the provincial to the Imperial engineer*ing service on the ground that, as he had actually entered the Sibpur Engineering College before the issue of the orders closing the Imperial service to students of Indian Engineering Colleges, he had MR. ARTHUR LEE (Hampshire, Fareham): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is anticipated that any of the three war recently lost, viz., H.M.S. "Gladiator," be salved and restored to a condition of Tiger," and H.M.S. "Gala," can fighting efficiency; and, if not, what steps will be taken by His Majesty's Government to replace these vessels and to maintain unimpaired the fighting strength of the Navy. THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. McKENNA, Monmouthshire, N.) Salvage operations on H.M.S. "Gladiator" are being carried out; but no opinion can yet be formed as to her ultimate condition. It is not proposed to attempt to salve either H.M. ships "Tiger" or "Gala." While our ship construction is not on so narrow a margin as to render any immediate action imperative, yet in view of an exceptional opportunity for replacement on most advantageous terms having presented itself, the Board are now considering the question. MR. ARTHUR LEE: May I ask whether, in view of the officially recognised deficiency in modern torpedo destroyers, the Government will increase the present year's programme of those vessels from sixteen to eighteen, in order that the minimum provision considered necessary before these disasters took place may not be reduced? MR. MCKENNA: The question is obviously one for discussion in debate on the Estimates. Submarine Boats--Safety Arrangements MR. ARTHUR LEE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty has recently adopted the Siebe-Gorman apparatus for enabling the crews of foundered submarine boats to escape to the surface; if so, whether steps are being taken to supply this device as rapidly as possible to the crews of all submarine boats now in the service; and how many sets of this apparatus have already been issued and how many are to be supplied during the current financial year. MR. MCKENNA: Various safety arrangements are being tested and the most suitable will be adopted. MR. MCKENNA: The present system of competition and negotiation is preferable from an executive point of view, and it is doubtful whether any economy would result from such a change as that suggested. In view of the large amount of tonnage required about the same time, and the urgency of the service, the Admiralty cannot agree that the sums paid were extortionate. Torpedo Destroyers. MR. THORNTON (Clapham): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty when the sixteen new torpedo destroyers promised in this year's Naval Programme will be completed ; and how many destroyers of eleven years of age will be possessed by Germany and Great Britain, respectively, at the date of these British vessels being commissioned. MR. MCKENNA: Under normal conditions the sixteen new destroyers will be completed about July, 1910. I am unaware what importance the hon. Member attaches to the period of eleven years, but the Board of Admiralty know of no circumstances which would make this an appropriate period for purposes of comparison, and we consider it inexpedient to submit any figures which would imply an official endorsement of such an age of period. MR. ARTHUR LEE: May I ask if it is the case that in the original contracts for Class C submarines now being built this provision has been ordered as part of the contract? Is any provision being made for the forty-five boats with crews of 500 men already in the service? MR. MCKENNA asked for notice the Question. The Navy. MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY (St. Andrews Burghs): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps are being taken to replace the ships recently lost in His Majesty's Navy. MR. MCKENNA: I must refer the hon. Member to the reply I have just given to the hon. Member for Fareham. Transport for War Times. MR. HOLT (Northumberland, Hexham): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in order to protect the national exchequer against having to pay extortionate sums for transports, as was the case during the late war in South Africa, he will consider the desirability of acquiring powers for the compulsory hiring of merchant ships during war time at a price to be fixed subsequently by 1 MR. ARTHUR LEE: Is not the depreciation put in the official Estimates at five per cent. for eleven years? MR. MCKENNA: No, Sir. The figures he refers to are in reference to torpedo boats. The destroyers are not included under that head. They come under the gunboats heading. Protection of Scottish Fisheries. MR. MORTON (Sutherland): On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, in view of the inability of the cruisers at the command of the Fishery Board for Scotland efficiently to protect the interests of line fishermen around the coast of Scotland against the depredations of illegal trawling, will he consider the expediency of detailing one or additional Admiralty cruisers for seapolice duties in the Moray Firth and off more MR. MCKENNA: My hon. friend must not of course expect me to admit the preamble to his Question. It is not in contemplation to detail additional cruisers of His Majesty's Navy for the duties referred to. new silvered vessel test for cordite is of a very confidential character; and, if not, whether he can see his way to circulate a description of it with the Votes. MR. MCKENNA: There is nothing confidential in this test. A description Navigation of the Solent. MR. FELL (Great Yarmouth): I beg is already published in the Corrections to to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty the Army Ordnance Regulations, which if, having regard to the fact of the is on sale to the public. numerous collisions that have taken place in the Solent, and to the losses that have taken place there of His Majesty's ships of war, and to the fact that no authority has any jurisdiction there, he will consider the question of the advisability of extending the western limits of the dockyards at Portsmouth to the Needles. MR. MCKENNA The question has already been considered, and it is not at present deemed desirable to extend the limits of the dockyard port. MR. FELL: Is it the opinion of the Admiralty that this portion of inland waters is a kind of "no man's land," no authority having any jurisdiction or control over it? Will the Admiralty under these circumstances reconsider the question? MR. MCKENNA: I have already replied to the latter part of the Question. Cordite for the Navy. MR. BELLAIRS (Lynn Regis): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is intended to issue cordite containing mercuric chloride. to His Majesty's ships in the event of war. MR. MCKENNA: Should any such cordite which had passed the prescribed tests be available and be required during war time it would most certainly be issued. MR. BELLAIRS: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much of this cordite there is in stock and in reserve ? MR. MCKENNA asked that the Question should be put on the Paper. Cordite Tests. MR. BELLAIRS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the this the test that was approved by Lord LORD R. CECIL (Marylebone, E.): Is Rayleigh's Committee? MR. MCKENNA: I am not sure; I should like notice of that Question. The Attestation Oath. *MR. ASHLEY (Lancashire, Blackpool): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, if he will state why, in the oath which the Territorial soldier has to take on joining, the words defining the limits within which he has undertaken to serve have not been inserted, in view of the fact that such words were inserted in the old Volunteer oath. THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. HALDANE, Haddington): A member of the Volunteer Force enrolled under the old oath, if volunteering for service abroad, was obliged to be regularly enlisted for such service. This gave rise to considerable difficulties during the South African War. The new form of oath has been drawn up to avoid the necessity for such re-attestation. It has been made quite clear in the form of attestation that the liability undertaken extends to the United Kingdom only, and not to any place outside it except by voluntary undertaking. *MR. ASHLEY pointed out the danger of misapprehension in view of the fact that the liability appears only in the Schedule of the oath and not in the oath itself. MR. HALDANE: The man is fully informed when he takes the oath. Militia and Volunteer Officers. MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many officers have left the Militia and Volunteers, respectively, during the twelve months ending 31st March; and how many officers have joined the forces ferred to the number of all ranks on the named during the same period. 1st January, 1908. MR. HALDANE: 282 officers left the Militia, and 260 joined that force during the period specified. 619 combatant officers left the Volunteers, and 546 joined the force during the same period. Ranges for the Territorial Artillery. MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War under what Parliamentary authority it is contemplated to use the Public Works Loans Fund for the provision of ranges for the Territorial Artillery; when issues for this purpose will be made by the Public Works Loans Commissioners; and upon what property they will be secured. MR. HALDANE: It is proposed to include in the Public Works Loans Bill this year a clause enabling the Public Works Loans Commissioners to lend money to County Associations for the purposes of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act. Issues can be made, if occasion arises, by the Commissioners when they have been empowered to lend money to County Associations. Such issues will be secured upon the land and the general revenue of a County Association with the consent of the Army Council. MR. ASHLEY: Are we to understand there is no personal liability on the members of the Association ? MR. HALDANE: That is so. Army Establishment. *MR. ASHLEY: Is the Army therefore now short by 3,600 officers? MR. HALDANE: No; there is no material change. There has always been a shortage. Home Infantry Establishment. MR. ASHLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the Return showing the actual strength of the Infantry battalions and depots on the home establishment on the 1st March last, issued on the Motion of Viscount Midleton, a deficit of 7,520 men is shown; whether this deficit has now been made good in whole or in part; and, if in part only, to what extent and by what means. MR. HALDANE: Apparently the hon. Member is alluding to Cd. 3802 which gave figures for the 1st February and not for the 1st March. His figures are not understood-but probably he has not noticed that the Return is for rank and file only and does not include old soldiers at the depots. The actual deficit of non-commissioned officers and men in line battalions and depots at home on the 1st March was 3,716, and this deficit had, on the 1st April, been reduced by 1,259, this reduction being irrespective of alterations in establishment. Field Artillery Brigades. MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: (St. Andrews Burghs): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the desirability of stiffening the field artillery brigades of the Territorial Army with a proportion of Regulars in addition to the permanent staff, say eight drivers and eight horses per battery. MR. HALDANE: Permission has recently been granted to County Associa tions to enlist ex-soldiers of horse and field artillery up to the age of thirty-six. MR. HALDANE: The figures given It is hoped that the ranks of the field on the 6th April referred to the number batteries will thereby be stiffened with of non-commissioned officers and men on expert drivers and gunners, who would the 1st March, 1908. The figures shown also assist in the instruction of the ordin already granted for the permanent staff to be found from the Regular horse and field artillery amounts to 378. We do not propose to make any alteration in this, and it will be time enough to discuss it when the scheme has received a fair trial. MR. ARTHUR LEE asked the right hon. Gentleman to answer the last part of the Question referring to the horses for these batteries. MR. HALDANE said it was intended to supply the trained horses that were necessary. If there was any shortage the matter would be reconsidered. MR. ARTHUR LEE: Are the horses to go round the different batteries, or will individual batteries have their own horses? MR. HALDANE: Individual batteries will have their own horses. It is a very bad plan for different batteries to use the same set of horses. Artillery Brigade Training. MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of training brigades on a four-gun basis with the same establishment of men and horses that are allotted to batteries of the expeditionary force. MR. HALDANE: I think that the scheme of having brigades on a two-gun basis should first be given a fair trial. If the present provisional establishment of the training brigades proves not to be large enough to carry out the instructional duties allotted to them, it will then be time to consider increasing it. I may add that at present there has been no reduction of personnel in the Field Artillery in consequence of the formation of the training brigades. Military Camps. MR. HICKS BEACH (Gloucestershire, Tewkesbury): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many troops have been under canvas in Great Britain during the month of April; and whether there is a King's regulation to the effect that no troops shall go under canvas before 1st May. VOL. CLXXXVII. [FOURTH SERIES.] MR. HALDANE: Under paragraph 1,362 King's regulations General Officers Commanding-in-Chief are permitted to approve the placing of troops under canvas before the 1st May. As these matters rest within their discretion no statistics of the character required by the Question are forwarded to the War Office. Territorial Artillery Guns. MR. ASHLEY: On behalf of the hon. Member for the Rye Division of Sussex, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Territorial Artillery are expected to be able to lay out lines of fire with the converted 15-pounder gun; and, if so, when the necessary directors, field plotters, dial sights, etc., will be provided. MR. HALDANE: The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the rest of the Question it is not practicable at present to give any definite date when it will be possible to issue the equipment mentioned. MR. CARLILE (Hertfordshire, St. Albans) asked if it were not the fact that the 15-pounders were found to be out of range―― *MR. SPEAKER: Notice should have been given of that Question. Garrison Artillery Volunteers. MR. ASHLEY: On behalf of the hon. Member for the Rye Division of Sussex, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War when the old 40-pounder rifled breech-loading guns issued to garrison artillery Volunteers will be called in. MR. HALDANE: Instructions for the return of these guns to store were issued on the 15th ultimo. Breech-loaders for the Territorial Artillery. MR. ASHLEY: On behalf of the hon. Member for the Rye Division of Sussex, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War how many converted 15-pounder breech-loading guns have yet been issued to the Territorial Artillery for drill and instructional purposes: and when the necessary limbers, drill ammunition, and handbooks for use with these guns will be provided. 3 P |