HOUSE OF LORDS.

Speech indicates revision by the Member. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a

Wednesday, 1st April, 1908.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

Honourable Artillery Company. Petition of the Honourable Artillery Company, under their Common Seal, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to appoint special trustees in regard to certain land and premises of the Honourable Artillery Company, and for other purposes, together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.

Cardiff Railway Bill [H.L.]; Argentine North Eastern Railway Bill [H.L.]; St. Marylebone Borough Council (Super annuation) Bill [H.L.].-Reported, with

Amendments.

Bristol Corporation Bill [H.L.]; Bristol Tramways Bill [H.L.]; Keighley CorUrban District Council Gas Bill [H.L.]; poration Bill [H.L.]; Wath-upon-Dearne Ravensthorpe Urban District Council Bill [H.L.]; Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [H.L.]; Leith Burgh Bill [H.L.]; Ammanford Urban District Council Water Bill [H.L.]; Llanelly and Burry Port Water Board Bill [H.L.]; Conway and Colwyn Bay Joint Water Board Bill-Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Derby Gas Bill.-Read 2a, and com- Select Committee for the consideration mitted. of the said Bills, viz. :—

Conway and Colwyn Bay Joint Water Board Bill.-Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

Stockport Corporation Bill.-Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

Pontypridd Water Bill [H.L.].-Read 3, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

Aire and Calder Navigation Bill [H.L.]; Great Northern, Piccadilly, and Brompton Railway Bill [H.L.]; Metropolitan District Railway Bill [H.L.]; Rochester Bridge Bill [H.L.]; Stratford-upon-Avon, Towcester, and Midland Junction Railway, Evesham, Redditch, and Stratfordupon-Avon Junction Railway, and East and West Junction Railway (Amalgamation) Bill [H.L.]; Barry Railway Bill [H.L.]; Monmouthshire County Council Bill [H.L.]; Stockport Corporation Bill. -Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select

VOL. CLXXXVII. [FOURTH SERIES.]

E. Carnwath,

E. Verulam,
E. Liverpool,
V. Hill,

L. Ludlow (Chairman) ;

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly. The Committee to meet on o'clock; and all petitions referred to the Tuesday, the 12th of May next, at Eleven Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also counsel for the Bills.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.

No. 3965. Venezuela (Ciudad Bolivar),
No. 3966. Russia.

R

COMPANIES CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]. A Bill to consolidate the Companies Act, 1862, and the Acts amending itWas presented by the Lord Granard (E. Granard); read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 44.)

movable, or which are, in point of fact, generally in the habit of being moved about. A building which, for any lengthened time, is in one particular spot might very safely be left to be dealt with by the sanitary and educational machinery which at present exists.

I will touch briefly on the history of this legislation. In 1877 an Act was passed for regulating boats that ply up and down the canals, and it is upon that measure that the present Bill is modelled. In 1885 there was a Royal Commission on the Housing of the Working Classes, and that Commission dealt with the subject as it is dealt with in this Bill. The Commission recommended that

"The local authorities should be given jurisdiction over dwellings of this class by means of the extension of their power by statute to all habitations, and the powers given in Section 23 of the Public Health Act (drainage) should be extended to any hut or tent and to any cart used for sleeping which remains for more than two nights within 200 yards of the same spot. The recommendations of your Majesty's Commissioners are made for the benefit of the neighbourhood in which van towns are situated as well as in the interests of the settlers themselves."

An Act for the Housing of the Working Classes was passed in 1885, and, among other provisions, there is one very excellent provision from the sanitary point of view from which great good was expected, but which we have every reason to suppose has, in a great many instances, been singularly inoperative, for reasons. which I will shortly point out. Section 9 Order of the Day for the Second of the Housing of the Working Classes Reading read.

MOVABLE DWELLINGS BILL [H.L.].

[SECOND READING].

Act, 1885, provides that

"9. (1) A tent, van, shed, or similar struc LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: ture used for human habitation, which is in My Lords, this Bill deals with a sub- such a state as to be a nuisance or injurious to health; (a) or which is so overcrowded as ject to deal with which several to be injurious to the health of the inmates attempts have been made. The lead- whether or not members of the same family, ing principles of the Bill are few, and, shall be deemed to be a nuisance within the at first sight, I think, almost incontro-meaning of Section ninety-one of the Publicvertible. The first of those principles is that it is inequitable that movable dwellings should be entirely outside the sanitary, social, and educational laws which govern stationary buildings; and the second is that, as far as possible, each movable dwelling should have some one authority which should be responsible for its compliance with the regulations. The Bill has been carefully restricted to dwellings which are in their nature

Health Act, 1875; and the provisions of that Act shall apply accordingly; (b) (2) A sanitary authority may make bye-laws (c) for promoting cleanliness in, and the habitable condition of, tents, vans, sheds, and similar structures used for human habitation, and for preventing the spread of infectious disease by the persons inhabiting the same, and generally for the prevention of nuisances in connection with the same (d).”

The difficulty that arises is this, that when these wanderers infringe the bye-laws of a local authority and their attention is

called to the fact, they adopt the simple | dwellings, and this registration is comexpedient of moving into the area of mitted to counties and county boroughs. another local authority where they wait until again detected in their malpractices. It would, therefore, seem to be necessary that there should be some one authority to which these dwellings should belong, an authority which could make regulations for them and enforce those regulations, by taking away, if necessary, the certificate in right of which they move about the country.

The object of restricting the registration authorities to these two bodies is that they are, as a rule, the educational authorities of the district. They are not too numerous, and therefore, we avoid the difficulty which I mentioned a moment ago of a great multiplicity of regulations. They also cover fairly large areas. Clause 2 provides for the making of regulations for the registration of movable dwellings, for the lettering, marking, and numbering of such dwellings, and for registering the number, age, and sex of the persons who may be allowed to use a movable dwelling as a place of abode, having regard to cubic space, "I think it is very likely that before the ventilation, provision for the separation

A Committee of the House of Commons

sat upon a Bill introduced in another place in 1887, and Sir Hugh Owen, who was appearing for the Local Government Board, said

summons was served the van would be outside the jurisdiction of the justices."

That is practically what, in practice, is found generally to happen. Another difficulty which has arisen is that it is impossible to expect a van dweller to be acquainted with the multiplicity of bye-laws. Giving evidence before the same Committee, Sir Hugh Owen said"It would be unbearable that a man who can pass within ten minutes out of one district into another should be subject to varying provisions

of bye-laws."

The Bill of 1887 was not proceeded with. With regard to bye-laws, the Local Government Board have rightly objected to sanction varying bye-laws for various districts. Sir Hugh Owen told the Committee in 1887 that up to that time the only bye-laws to which the Local Government Board had given their assent were those of Battersea, and I do not think many have been sanctioned since. Middlesex, however, a couple of years ago obtained a provision in a private Act which enabled them to deal with movable dwellings. The effect of that Clause is that where a movable dwelling is occupying land within fifty yards of a public highway or dwelling, so as to cause injury to the residents or to be a nuisance, or dangerous, o:

injurious to health, the local authority may complain, and the council may make an Order; but an exception was made in favour of vans frequenting fairs.

I now come to the Bill before your Lordships. Clause 1 has for its object, first, the registration of all movable

of the sexes, and general healthiness and convenience of accommodation. I might remark here that I admit there is no necessity for those regulations being so stringent in their nature as in the case of permanent dwellings in towns; for instance, regulations with regard to cubic space which are eminently suited to lodging houses may be somewhat too stringent when applied to a van in the open air. The clause also enables regulations to be made for promoting cleanliness in and providing for the habitable condition of movable dwellings, and for preventing nuisances, fire, and the spread of infectious disease. Clause 3 defines the registration authority, and Clause 4 deals with the certificate of registry. Clause 5 is somewhat on the lines of that in the Middlesex Act. It provides that

66

Where it appears to the registration authorable dwellings on any specified place or places ity that the encampment of occupiers of movwithin their area would be dangerous to the public health, or constitute a nuisance to the neighbourhood, the registration authority may by bye-law prohibit such encampment on such specified place or places; and any person acting in contravention of any bye-law made under this section shall be guilty of an offence under this Act."

than the principles I have enunciated, This clause goes, perhaps, a little further because it deals not only with vans halting on common land but with movable dwellings on private land or on land leased or hired; and it seems to me that this is reasonable on the analogy of the building bye-laws and other sanitary

lands.

Clause 6 provides for the making of regulations with a view to enforcing the law relating to school attendance in the case of children resident in movable

provisions, which are equally applicable far short of what we are aiming atto the owners of private and public namely, that there shall be one authority responsible for the proper education of these children. If, however, the Government think that these educational clauses had better be left until we come to consider the Children Bill, I should not object. The definition clause leaves out temporary dwellings such as dwellings for hop-pickers and others, because they are not in the habit of being moved to any very great distance, and can be easily dealt with by the local authority clusion, I have only to say that I am far in whose area they are placed. In confrom not having sympathy with those who live an open-air life; but I confess I can see no reason why, in matters of education and sanitation, they should not be subject to the same social regulation as others.

dwellings. This is a clause on which,
I think, great stress ought to be laid,
for I am informed that in many instances
these children almost entirely evade the
Education Acts. It is not so much that
the machinery which at present exists
is insufficient to deal with these abuses,
as that the inhabitants of these dwellings
are able to evade supervision altogether
owing to the control of movable dwell-
ings being assigned to no one authority.
Another difficulty, of course, is that the
education bye-laws differ in various
districts, and there is also a very strong
objection to these children being ad-
mitted casually. If, however, they were
under some one authority that authority
would be able to insist on these people
making provision for the education of
their children, and if they failed they
would be able to enforce their authority
by withdrawing the certificate upon
which depended the movability of the
dwelling. In subsection (2) of Clause 6
there is a provision that it shall not be
deemed to be a reasonable excuse that
there is not within three miles of the
movable dwelling a public elementary
school. The reason for that, of course,
is that it would be very easy for the
owner of a movable dwelling to halt on
some distant moor far from any school,
and so entirely evade the Act. Clause 7
applies statutory provisions relating to
legal proceedings and the forgery of
certificates. Clause 8 provides that-

"It shall be the duty of the sanitary authority having jurisdiction in the place where a movable awelling is for the time being situate to assist the registration authority in carrying out the objects of this Act by giving information

and otherwise."

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2" (Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

VISCOUNT CROSS: My Lords, I think the House ought to be greatly indebted to my noble friend for bringing forward this Bill. I had a great deal to do with the provisions dealing with children in canal boats in the year 1877, and I had the honour of serving on the Royal Commission in 1885 to which the noble I ord alluded. I can assure your Lordships that there is a real grievance which requires a remedy. When these people infringe the bye-laws of a local authority and are attempted to be dealt with, they move out of the jurisdiction of that authority and are consequently very difficult to get at. Without committing myself to the actual wording of the clauses, some of which, I think, will require considerable amendment, I hope that, on the whole, the Bill will commend itself to the favourable consideration of His Majesty's Government. The point as to whether the education clauses should be maintained in this Bill or inserted in the Children Bill is one on which I care nothing, so long as thes provisions are enacted. I know tha there is a real evil to be dealt with, and I trust that the Bill will be read

There is a clause in the Government's
Children Bill which appears rather to
touch upon this point-Clause 107;
but it seems to me to be directed to the
sending of truant children to industrial
schools and rather supposes them to be, a second time.
tramping about with people with no

regular occupation and no regular LORD FARRER:
dwelling. I submit that this falls very to support the Bill.

My Lords, 1 rise

I happen to live

|

are

in the County of Surrey, where this send their children. An attempt was grievance is assuming proportions of made in another case at Reigate to get enormous magnitude. I can remember the police to interfere, but the chief conthe commons of Surrey being entirely free stable repliedfrom vans and gipsies. One-tenth of that county is common land, and it is of enormous importance to keep the lungs of London free. Whereas it was formerly possible to enjoy those commons, they now infested with tramps and gipsies of very description. The Census of 1901 showed that there were 634 persons sleeping in these vans on the night of the Census, and there were a very large number of tramps and nomads. These people pay no rates, no education is provided for their children, and the honest cottager who lives on the land detests these people in a way that would probably surprise your Lordships.

We all have some sympathy for the picker-up of unconsidered trifles, but the old-fashioned gipsies are rapidly dying out, and the commons of Surrey are now infested with tramps and nomads to such an extent that a real and serious evil exists. One day last summer I found, on a marsh close to where I live, sixteen vans, with thirty-two children of school age who were attending no school at all and were being brought up in a most miserable condition. Two Sundays ago I was walking on the downs between Dorking and Guildford, and found twelve families camping there with about seventeen barefooted children in an almost savage condition. Last year alone there were three confinements in vans on

Leith Hill Common, and at a recent meeting of the Dorking Board of Guardians attention was called to the terrible

conditions under which medical men had

to attend these cases. No satisfactory or decent preparation was made, and it was declared that the only satisfactory solution of the question lay in fresh legislation. Under the law as it stands sanitary authorities are quite powerless to deal with the evil.

The education authorities are also powerless to deal with these children. I was informed by a county councillor that the reason for a great number of gipsies infesting a particular common was that the schools in the neighbourhood were quite full, and they knew they could not in those circumstances be compelled to

to the existence of contagious skin disease "I beg to acknowledge your letter relative which you consider was probably introduced by the gipsies in the neighbourhood. This appears to be a matter to which the sanitary authorities should give attention. Only the Lord of the Manor can remove gipsies from waste land. I cannot instruct the police to remove them. I am sorry I cannot help you. We are, therefore, powerless to deal with this matter under the present law, and I sincerely hope the Bill now before your Lordships will be accepted. I might add that we have managed to get rid of some of these people through the servancy possess. They have power, great powers which the Thames Conunder their Act, to deal with all the watersheds of the Thames and it is extremely important that the water supply of London should be kept pure and clean. I hope your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading.

EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I have been rather surprised at the approval with which this Bill has been received. There is a tendency to too much registration and too much lettering and numbering in the Bill, and I think the reasons which have just been given apply not so much to this particular Bill as to some method for abolishing these vans and gipsies altogether, because there is nothing in the Bill which would prevent the greater part of the evils referred to by the noble Lord who had just sat down. As long as vans and tents are registered, they will be still permitted. Of course, I recognise that there is a good deal to be said for the children obtaining the other hand, I am not at all sure that any necessary education, although, on the great harm would be done to them if a considerable portion of their youth were spent on open commons instead of in public elementary schools. If your Lordships will look at Clause 14 you will see that the definition of the expression "movable dwelling" includes more than insanitary and overcrowded gipsy vans. It includes

"Tents and other structures capable of being moved from place to place."