these various items in the current as anyone, but they could not have year in the case of Scotland alone. open spaces everywhere, or they would have no property to pay rates and taxes. That part of London was provided fairly well with open spaces, and he was not anxious to preserve the Law Court gardens as an open space. But the item was new, and it had never been explained what was going to be done eventually with the £95,000, of which £5,000 was on the Vote as a commencement. He would like to know what was the scheme that the right hon. Gentleman expected Could the plans be

* MR. MORTON (Sutherland) was sorry to notice that there was considerable increase in the total Vote notwithstanding their pretended economy, and a very large part of it, £14,250, was for furniture. When they were well off, and had plenty of money, they might be extravagant in regard to furniture which they ought, to curtail when there was need for economy. He was afraid waste was going on somewhere, especially in regard to this item. to carry out. He quite admitted that it was necessary seen of what was proposed? Did that they should look after their public they want four new Law Courts ? buildings, but there was no occasion He dared say that even £95,000 would that he knew of to be extravagant. not complete the scheme. They seldom Although they had not the details which had a scheme without having a revised would enable them to criticise the Vote estimate. With regard to the item of very closely, he was afraid there was ap- £14,210 for the maintenance and proparent extravagance when they had to pay tection of ancient monuments, £3,935 in the coming year over £50,000 more of that was appropriated to Scotland. than last year. In regard to Scotland They had not much information as to they paid too much towards the revenue how that money was to be expended. of the country generally, and did not He did not think they did enough in get their fair share back. They did maintaining those old monuments, but not get anything like the proportion he would like to know what was going they were supposed to have on what to be done so that they might see was called the equivalent gran, viz., whether the money was properly spent that they ought to have 11 per cent. or not. A certain sum had already been spent on the Law Courts at Edinburgh, and a further sum was now asked. He thought part of that was for the acquisition of ground, as well as for the buildings. Would the right hon. Gentleman tell them what was the present position of things, whether the building was being gone on with and whether it was likely to be completed within a reasonable time. At present before the alterations were made there was no doubt that the building was a disgrace to the country, to civilisation, and to such a handsome. city as Edinburgh, and he trusted that something would be done to 'give them a decent and respectable Court. He was aware, of course, that all these matters cost money, but it was their duty to find out as much as they could with a view to letting people know that they did а least attempt to know somethin about the way the people's money was being expended. They did not get many opportunities of discussing these things and perhaps if they did not discuss them

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Order, order; that cannot be discussed on this Vote.

*MR. MORTON was very sorry the hon. Member opposite was allowed to allude to the expenditure in Scotland.

The

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: hon. Member opposite alluded to items

on the Vote.

*MR. MORTON said he wanted to say, with regard to those items, that they did not get their fair share s regarded public buildings and other matters, and he did not think, therefore, there was any reason to complain that on this Vote Scotland had too large an amount. He would like to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman would give a little more information with regard to the new Law Courts in the Strand. He was as much in favour of open spaces

now they would not have another oppor- which had filled him with some alarm, tunity, because the Government would viz., the question of the Duke of take care that the Vote for the right York's School. For the first time, hon. Gentleman's salary would never he thought, the Committee had been come on for discussion; it would be no doub guillotined in accordance with the new but nct improved procedure. Therefore it was their duty to take that opportunity of discussing the Vote as well as they were able and to get as much information as they could. The right hon. Gentleman knew that he took an interest in these buildings and that he had no desire at all to be offensive to him personally in making these inquiries, but he was ure that people of Scotland, especially in regard to the matters he had mentioned. would be obliged to him if he would give them the fullest possible information.

MR. COCHRANE said he did not intend to raise again the absorbing topic which was of interest to Scotland or to congratulate the hon. Member for Gloucestershire for his exceeding industry in going through some of the items in which he had discovered that a few hundreds had been spent in Scotland that were not spent last year. He observed that the hon. Member included in Scotland Great Scotland Yard which also appeared on the same Vote, but he could assure him it was an entirely different place. He really desired to recall the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to his eagerness in closing up the open spaces in London under his charge. He could only presume that he had one eye on the Land Values Bill which the Government intended to prosecute to its success or failure. He seemed to want to cover over with buildings that part of the garden connected with the Law Courts which had been open some twenty-five years. That appeared to be a question which legal Members were more qualified to deal with than he was. He could only think the right hon. Gentleman, in desiring so speedily to build over that ground, had some idea that taxation would be imposed on unoccupied spaces which would touch the pocket of the Treasury of which he was so close a guardian. He desired to ask a question connected with a point the right hon. Gentleman had raised himself,

informed that that school, not only the
buildings he understood, but the admir-
able open space which surrounded them,
would be put up for sale. He hoped
the right hon. Gentleman would be
able to reasure them that it was not his
intention to let out as building lands,
possibly for the erection of streets and
houses or factories, that
open space which
had been a great pleasure as a health
resort to the whole of the somewhat
crowded neighbourhood of Chelsea. He
hoped the right hon. Gentleman in his
eagerness to cover the ground with
buildings would spare at least one or
two of those open spaces and that the
ground surrounding the Duke of York's
School would remain an open space for
the benefit of the public.

*MR. HARCOURT said the new public offices at the corner of Whitehall had been allotted a long time ago, and would shortly be occupied by the Board of Education and the Local Government Board. The accommodation vacated by the Local Government Board would then be occupied mostly by the Home Office and partly by the Colonial Office, but it was all required for the extension of these two offices. Immediately the old War Office building in Pall Mall ceased to be a Government office it passed out of his control to the office of Woods and Forests who were proposing to let it out on building leases. The whole policy for many years had been to concentrate Government offices in the neighbourhood of Whitehall and the Houses of Parliament. The hon. Member for Sutherland had complained of the increase in this Vote by £14,000 for furniture, and certainly if it had been a normal year he would be with him. But this happened to be a year in which they were occupied with a new block of public offices, and he was sure the hon. Member's tender heart would not wish to turn even his colleague of the Local Government Board into an unfurnished office. £13,000 for furnishing a great block of public offices and £5.000 for the Duke of York's school furniture removal made £18,000, although the increase on the

Vote was only £14,000, so that in other *MR. HARCOURT replied that he could directions he had made an economy of not say what arrangements the Treasury £4,000 in order to meet the special might make. demands made on him in connection with these new buildings. The extension of the Law Courts had been discussed for a great many years, and he and many of his predecessors had convinced themselves that the accommodation was urgently required owing to the fact that two new Judges had been appointed. It was proposed to carry the thing out as a continuation of the original plans. Judges, Bar, solicitors, suitors, and officials were all agreed as to the necessity of the Courts, and there was no other place to put them except this vacant space.

LORD BALCARRES hoped that some portion of the site now occupied by the Duke of York's School would be preserved as an open space. The value of open spaces in the Metropolis increased every day, and if the First Commissioner would make representations in that direction to the Treasury, no doubt they would receive due consideration. With regard to the Paymaster-General's Office, it was a building with some historic associations, and he was not aware what could be put in its place which would more worthily occupy the ground. He hoped, however, that

*MR. MORTON: Do you want four the right hon. Gentleman's improvenew Courts?

*MR. HARCOURT: Yes, Sir. The hon. Member would be pleased to know how far he was making sixpences go in Scotland.

ments would be limited to removing anachronisms and excrescences without adding new masonry to old buildings. With regard to the National Gallery, he was ready to acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman was spending the money well. The hon. Member

*MR. MORTON: What about the for Sutherland was surprised that

the Estimate showed an increase. The hon. Member ought not to be surprised, because there was an increase of £1,000,000 on the Post Office Estimates, and £670,000 on the Civil Service Estimates. Next year there would be a gigantic increase on the Navy Estimates, and the same thing was going on all round. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman for the increase in this particular Vote, because there were few ways in which the money could be spent more profitably. One of the items set down in connection with the extension of the National Gallery, was the new site and buildings for the Recruiting Station in Great Scotland Yard, which was very suitable and extremely central. In a foot-note it was stated that the accommodation which this building used to have behind the National Gallery would in future be adapted. to extend the National Portrait Gallery. Few public institutions were more valuable than that, and it was now in a very congested state. Therefore, he thought the right hon. Gentleman was doing well to make provision for its enlargement. He was a trustee of the National Portrait Gallery, which he

considered was a very important in- | monuments in Scotland. The right hon. stitution, and sadly needed extension. Gentleman had read a long and startling It was a sad thing, month after month, list and he did not quite grasp what the when interesting and valuable portraits amount was.

*MR. HARCOURT: The amount is

MR. T. L. CORBETT asked what was going to be spent on the same kind of work in Ireland?

were offered, that the trustees had to
consider whether they were justified
in accepting a picture which they could £2,935 for Scotland alone.
not exhibit to the public. He hoped
that in deciding upon these extensions
the claims of the National Portrait
Gallery would not be overlooked. He
was not pressing the right hon. Gentle-
man to make a grant at once or com-
plaining of the amount being voted
towards the National Gallery, but he
urged that in complying with the demands
of the National Gallery they should not
encroach upon the space which would
legitimately fall to the extension of
the National Portrait Gallery, because
there was plenty of room for both. He
hoped the right hon. Gentleman would
make an ample extension in that direc-
tion whenever the finances would permit.

THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: That will not be in order on this Vote.

*MR. HARCOURT said that with regard to what had been said about preserving the open space in connection with the Duke of York's School he would see that the views which had been expressed were placed before the Treasury. In reply to the noble Lord the Member for Chorley he might say that he had neither the money for nor the intention of altering the Paymaster-General's Office. As for the National Portrait Gallery, no Vote was put down for its extension, but that had always been present to his mind and it was one of the objects for which he desired to clear the site behind the Gallery. All his plans for the extension of the National Gallery had always left a place for the extension of the National Portrait Gallery, which was greatly needed, and when he could get rid of the Recruiting Station and obtain the money from the Treasury or anybody else that would be done.

MR. T. L. CORBETT expressed his gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman for what he had done in many ways to improve the accommodation for Members in the House. He had, however, risen simply for the purpose of asking what was the actual amount the right hon. Gentleman was going to spend on historic buildings and prehistoric

MR. LANE-FOX said he understood the right hon. Gentleman to state when dealing with the question of ancient monuments in Scotland that certain sums had been spent in repairing cathedrals. His experience was that Scotland was very ably and thoroughly represented in the House, and generally she got a great deal more than she was entitled to. [Cries of "No."] Well, if she did not, that was not the fault of her representatives. He wished to know why cathedrals in Scotland should be repaired at the public expense, while English cathedrals were not. Two years ago he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a grant in favour of an English cathedral, and he received a point blank refusal. Why should there be any difference between Scotland and England in that matter?

SIR F. BANBURY said he did not see why public money should be spent on cathedrals in Scotland, while the same thing was not done in England. He wished to know when the entrance to Trafalgar Square, at the end of the road in front of Buckingham Palace, would be open for traffic. The road had been open for two years, and he could not see why the part to which he referred should not be made available for traffic, even though the official residences in connection with the Admiralty were not yet completed. It would be a great public convenience if the road into Trafalgar Square were open. It might not be possible to open the road in a finished state, on account of the building operations, but he did not see why there should not be a temporary opening for vehicular traffic. He

thought about £20 would do the whole thing. The proposed extension of the Patent Office might be necessary, but he wished to know why so large a sum as £90,000 should be spent upon it. He should think that owing to the protective policy of the President of the Board of Trade there would be an increase in the amount of work done under the new patents law, but the sum proposed to be spent in extending the office seemed to be very large. He could not join the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth in expressing confidence in the design for the extension of the Law Courts. He thought he was correct in saying that Judges, barristers, and suitors were agreed that the ventilation and accommodation in the Law Courts were unsatisfactory, although the outer shell was beautiful. The hon. Member had said that in the new building there would be light and air. That was exactly what he understood there had never been in the present buildings, and if there was the same error in the design of the new buildings they would be as unsuitable for their purpose as apparently the older buildings had turned out to be. As a protest against money being spent on Scottish cathedrals, he begged to move to reduce the Vote by

£500.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £342,400, be granted for the said Service."(Sir F. Banbury.)

took over with the Union. The road from Buckingham Palace to Trafalgar Square would be known as The Mall. It was not possible to open it in the way suggested by the hon. Baronet until the new buildings were nearer completion. The hon. Baronet would understand that if the road at that point were opened, traffic would have to go through what was practically a builder's yard when building operations were going on. It would be impossible for the contractor properly to carry on his work if traffic went through there, and in the event of accident to any member of the public he was not sure on whom the liability would fall. It was necessary to keep up the hoarding when the foundations were being put in. The superstructure was now going up which included the arches. The sum stated in the Vote for the Patent Office included the cost of the site as well as the buildings, and therefore the amount was not so large as it seemed on paper. The work of the Patent Office had very largely increased as the result of recent legislation, and the effect of that increase had been generally to the advantage of English trade.

MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanarkshire, N.W.) said he would vote against

the Amendment if there should be a
division. The cathedrals in Scotland
were great historic monuments.
It was
for want of a little money applied at the
right time that these monuments were
allowed to go to wreck and ruin. That
was the case of a historic building for
which a small sum was required at
present in order to save the expenditure
of a greater sum in future. The hon.
Member for the Barkston Ash Division
had stated that Scotland got too much
and England too little.

It is

*MR. HARCOURT expressed the hope that the hon. Baronet would not carry his protest further. The history of the responsibility of the Crown for the slight maintenance of certain ecclesiastical buildings was this. After the abolition of Episcopacy in the Established Church THE DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: of Scotland the obligation of supporting certain collegiate and ecclesiastical build-out of order on this Vote to discuss the ings was transferred to the Crown. The general finances of the two kingdoms. expenses of these repairs were borne by the hereditary revenues of the Crown up till 1832, and then transferred to the Vote for public buildings on the recommendation of a Committee of this House which sat in 1831. The whole thing amounted to very. little in money. It was an obligation which this country

MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON said that if it had been in order to read an official Paper which he held in his hand he would have been able to show that Scotland not only contributed more than her share, but that she did not get all she was en titled to.