less expense, and he felt that under a reform such as they were now considering their auxiliary asylums might find suitable habitations in the workhouses and make for still greater and substantial economy. He hoped his hon. and gallant friend would persist in going to a division and he should be most happy to support him. (Fer was life, and secondly, by bringing skilful such institutions. In England, of course, attention to the nursing staff of they were conducted at very great the workhouses and hospitals. In that expense, but he thought in Ireland they connection might he also say that had quite as much efficiency at vastly during recent years the class of nurses that had been induced to come forward for those positions had also visibly improved, greatly to the benefit of the patients. Lastly, the question had an important bearing on the great Scourge of tuberculosis in Ireland. Many of them were anxious that there should be grants in aid for the provision of the necessary sanatoria in groups of counties. There had been a great revival in the movement on that subject in Ireland during the last six months. He was always glad to acknowledge the impetus which had been given to the movement by the Countess of Aberdeen, and it had been greeted in all parts of Ireland with equal enthusiasm. Branches of the Women's Health Association had been founded in the North and South, and there was great hope that in a very short time those who had been stricken with the disease might get out of their heads the prevailing idea in Ireland that there was practically no hope of recovery. If under such a measure as this it was made permissible for county councils to give a small grant in aid for the provision of sanitoria a most valuable work would be done for the whole country. He regretted exceedingly that they had not had a more definite promise from the Chief Secretary. He hoped, in view of the fact that they were so unanimous in the matter, that the right hon. Gentleman would at least feel it his duty to urge upon the Government that that should be the first legislation for Ireland next session. He said that in all sincerity and with the utmost earnestness. The question of deportment had also been touched upon. Their able-bodied men went to England and Scotland, and if they broke down there, without having secured the necessary settlement, they were packed home to Ireland and had to be supported in the workhouses there. That was a real hardship which would be remedied under the Bill. As regarded lunatic asylums the local boards had been feeling the pressure of the burden of getting them up to the necessarily high standard prevailing in all *MR. FETHERSTONHAUGH managh, N.) said the reception of the measure by the Chief Secretary had been a little discouraging. When he taking the Irish Liberal Party on a personally conducted tour through the North of Ireland last summer he advised Irishmen that if they were unanimous on certain matters they would be sure to succeed. Differences were much more common in Ireland than unanimity, but here they had a subject on which, not only were all parties unanimous, but, as was shown by the history given by the hon. Member for Waterford, they had been unanimous for about seventy-five years. It was certainly the only question that could remember of which anything like that could be said. In 1833 people of such different opinions as the then Lord Castlereagh and Daniel O'Connell were united in their opposition to the Poor Law schemes put forward upon the authority of that execrated individual, Mr. Nicholls. Ever since then every person who had taken any interest in the Poor Law administration in Ireland had been abusing Nicholls, and he had no doubt that had he lived in Ireland he would have been boycotted, but he was wise enough to live in England. Although they had been all the time objecting to his system s one unsuitable to their country, and although they were now agreed that legislation should be introduced to give effect to the recom mendations of the Commission which reported so long ago as October, 1906, when they brought forward a Bill it did not receive the support which be thought they had a right to expect from the Government. He quite admitted that the Bill was open to considerable criticism. None of them imagined that it con the Bill got no further it would not have been in vain that they had called attention to and discussed the matter. was at all perfect or that it would be Health Acts was in a very miserable con. likely to become law in its present form, dition. They had to complain of the but they were not prepared to differ from sanitary condition of houses owned by the views of Gentlemen below the gang- the very people to whom they owed their way on any mere question of the appointment, two whom thy looked for personnel of the Commission, and continuance in that employment, and to that subject might be considered re- whom they must crawl if they wanted to moved from the area of contention. get a pension at the end of their service It was necessary to suggest some form for however long and meritorious. These the personnel of the Commission in order conditions were absolutely fatal to the that the matter might be discussed, but independence and efficiency of the Poor they had never suggested that it was part Law medical officers, and he hoped the of the essentials of the scheme. If any Chief Secretary would carefully proposal had been made by the hon. and sider their claims and the interests of learned Member for Waterford to sub- the public which were very much sacristitute any other persons for Judges ficed by existing conditions. They would of the High Court they would have go to a division to show that they been glad to agree to it, and he was were in earnest in bringing the Bill certain no opposition would have forward, and he hoped that although come from the Judges, because he noticed that the Bill did not provide any remuneration for them. Recognising as he did that the Bill would possibly require very considerable alteration, and MR. MOORE wanted to say a very possibly that it would be inexpedient or few words on the present situation, impossible to carry it into law this session, because undoubtedly there would be he regretted that the Government did very general disappointment in Irenot allow it to go as far as Committee, land that no further step had been because by discussing it in Committee taken in the matter of these reforms they might have learnt a great deal as to which every section of opinion in Ireland the views of different parties in Ireland on ardently desired. The first and the only matters of detail, and many valuable practical step that had been recommended suggestions, no doubt, would have been by the Commission to which other made. The Government, apparently, speakers had referred was the appointwould not take that course, and there- ment of a temporary Commission, and fore, although they would go to a divi- the only practical step in this Bill was sion, he supposed there was no prospect the appointment of such a Commission, of securing the Second Reading. He did and its objects and powers were set out not propose to deal with matters of in practically the words of the Vicedetail, but there was one circumstance regal Commission's Report. That Report, which reconciled him to the prospect of which had been so universally praised, the Bill's not becoming law, and that was stated that nothing practical could that he would be glad to see it deal more ever be done until a temporary fully with the position of the Poor Law Commission had been appointed, hell medical officers, which was a disgrace to local inquiries, and prepared schemes civilisation. The matter, which was very Whether there was going to be legisfully dealt with in the Report, was one of lation this year or next or in any very urgent importance, and he hoped succeeding year it was perfectly obvious when the Chief Secretary came to frame that that House could never pass a cast his measure next session he would give it iron scheme or rules and regulations for careful attention. The conditions under schemes in an Act of Parliament which which the medical officers were elected would apply to the varying circumstances were degrading to medical men, and in every part of the country. It was everyone knew that the best men perfectly obvious therefore, to any man were not secured owing to local of experience in the ordinary working of narrowness; what was more serious, things, that if these reforms were ever to they were not free agents, and as be brought into force it would only be by result the administration of the Public a local system under which a Commission а could go through the country, hold inquiries, and prepare schemes adapted to local needs and approved by local agreement. It being the beginning and end, the Alpha and Omega of the Report, that a temporary Commission should be appointed, and that being the practical thing in this Bill, he thought when that was refused they should understand on whose heads the responsibility lay and from whom the objection came. They had heard a good many professions of sympathy for the Bill, and at the same time they found a Member of the Party opposite trying to count out the House. That was a typical example of Liberal sympathy with Irish reform. The objection raised by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford was that no member of the Commission was to be popularly elected. There would have been no difficulty on the part of the promoters in meeting that objection. That was much too small a peg upon which to hang the rejection of the Bill, which was simply proposing to carry out the most practical recommendation of the Viceregal Commission. The Chief Secretary for Ireland did not want the Bill because it came from the Unionist Benches. MR. BIRRELL: No, no. MR. MOORE said the only objection the right hon. Gentleman had raised to the Bill was on account of the expense. He did not think the Chief Secretary ought to raise that objection at a time when he was increasing the Irish Estimates by £85,000 and was going to spend another £200,000 on University education in Ireland. The objection taken by the Chief Secretary was that the expenditure under the Bill would be enormous, and that it would be useless. It was true that the period fixed for the Act to remain in operation was five years, but they would in most cases be able to find out in twelve months whether local agreement was likely Anstruther-Gray, Major to be brought about. They might appoint the Commission for one year instead of five, and that might be a perfectly reasonable Amendment to make. As to the objection that it was going to be enormously expensive, he would point out that two out of the five Commissioners would not receive any remuneration at all. He presumed that one member of the Commission would be an experienced Civil servant representing the Local Government Board, and that would leave two members for one year to be paid. If they paid two members of the Commission £600 a year each, £500 to a secretary and allowed £1,000 for expenses, that would amount to £2,700. At any rate, £3,000 would be ample, and that was the enormous sum which the Chief Secretary stated would prevent the Government giving effect to the Bill with the object of which they professed to sympathise. That was a shabby excuse-a flimsy excuse to make for rejecting it, although it was on all fours, and practically word for word, with the Report of the Viceregal Commission. By reason of the attitude of the Government they could not get any farther with the Bill. Disappointed people would still see infirm old paupers herded with an undesirable class, mothers of illegitimate children were still to be allowed to contaminate the virtuous in the same institution, and all the evils about which all those acquainted with the social system of Ireland were crying out would be permitted to go on because this Bill was introduced from the Unionist Benches, and because the Government would not risk a sum of £3,000 to carry out what every thinking man in Ireland desired. They on the Unionist Benches had not been fairly treated. It one of the many instances in which the Government had turned a deaf ear to an Irish demand. Question put. The House divided:-Aves, 35; Noes, 89. (Division List No. 71.) Ashton, Thomas Gair Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Barry, RedmondJ.(Tyrone, N.) Bethell,Sir JH. (Essex, Romf'rd Brocklehurst, W. B. Causton, Rt. Hn RichardKnight Higham, John Sharp Hobart, Sir Robert Hope, John Deans (Fife, W. NOES. Hudson, Walter Jones, Leif (Appleby) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Masterman, C. F. G. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Nicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'r Parker, James (Halifax) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) CORONERS' INQUESTS BILL. MR. HIGHAM (Yorkshire, W.R., Sowerby) in moving the Second Reading said that the object of the Bill was a very simple one. The present state of the law was that the jury must view the body, however repulsive it might be or however great the danger from infection. The essence of the Bill was that the viewing should not be compulsory as provided by the Act of 1887, but optional at the discretion of the coroner. There might be cases in which the viewing of the body was essential, but the experience of a good many years and the opinion of many coroners was favourable to such an alteration in the law as was foreshadowed by the Bill. He Bill. He had Rowlands, J. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Stewart, Halley (Greenock Tennant,Sir Edward (Salisbury Verney, F. W. Wason, Rt. Hn E(Clackmannan White, Sir George (Norfolk) TELLERS FOR THE NOES-Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Herbert Lewis. known cases where infectious diseases had been transmitted through the act of viewing a body. In many cases the viewing of the body under the present law was a mere pretence, for they kept as far away from the body as they possibly could, and that was a breach of the oath they took. The object of the Bill was quite in harmony with the whole tendency of modern times, because the compulsory viewing of a body was almost on a level with the idea of public executions and other barbarous methods in vogue centuries ago. With the option given to the coroner to avoid possibilities of going wrong, and other safeguards, he thought the House might safely and advantageously pass the Bill which he had now the honour of moving, Motion made, and Question proposed, from the hon. Member for Buckrose "That the Bill be now read a second Division, who was himself a coroner. time."-(Mr. Higham.) It was not, he contended, a valid reason for asking the House to pass the Second *MR. LUKE WHITE (Yorkshire, E.R., Buckrose) said the Bill had been before Parliament for several years. In 1897 a Committee of the House reported in favour of doing away with the compulsory viewing of bodies by coroners' juries. His experience as a coroner had induced him to introduce the Bill two years ago. Three-fourths of the coroners in the country were in favour of the Bill. The measure did not do away with the viewing of the body in cases where the coroner or a majority of the jury considered that a view was necessary. He had received a great many letters from coroners, doctors, and jurymen, and, so far as he could gather, opinion throughout the country was almost unanimous in favour of passing the Bill. He could give instances which would assure the House that it was cruel to compel jurymen to view bodies. None could speak better regarding the measure than the members of the Labour Party. He had had communications from a great number of trade unions in districts where frightful catastrophes had taken place, and where jurymen were obliged to examine bodies in conditions under which the duty ought not to be imposed upon them. He hoped the House would read the Bill a second time. SIR F. BANBURY (City of London) said he had listened to the two hon. Members who had spoken in favour of the Bill in the hope that he should hear some valid arguments in it; support, but the only argument which they had brought forward was that coroners' juries should not be compelled to perform the disagreeable duty of viewing bodies, He was not surprised that the hon. Member who moved the Second Reading should advance that argument, but he was rather surprised to hear it Reading of the Bill to say that it was disagreeable for the jury to perform their duties. There were many duties cast upon men in this country, and in all countries, which were disagreeable, but which they had to carry out. One of the conditions of having the franchise was that the electors had to act as jurymen. Hon. Gentlemen below the gangway were always insisting that every body ought to have the franchise, and yet, while people exercised the privileges of the franchise, there was an objection on the part of some to disch rge the disagreeable duties connected with it. No doubt it was disagreeable for coroners' follow that they ought to shirk that juries to view boaies, but it did not at all which was disagreeable. He had always understood that the more disagreeable a be to carry it out, if, by so doing, he was thing was the more willing a person should assisting the welfare of the country. He had a letter from a coroner telling him that it would be a very great obstacle to the detection of crime if the com pulsory viewing of the body by the coroner's jury was abandoned. He himself did not pretend to be able to say whether that statement was well founded or not, but it had been sent to him unsolicited. It seemed to him to have some probability of being correct. He was not in the House at the time the law was passed, and he did not know what the object was, but he presumed that the object was that there should be additional means placed before the jury for determining whether or not a crime had been committed. viewing of the body went a long way in that direction. The hon. Member for the Buckrose Division said that the Bill, supposing it became law, would not prevent the coroner from insisting upon the jury viewing the body if he thought it necessary that they shoula do so. The His |