Dr. SHELEY. Yes, sir. That is it, sir. I do not think there are more than three or four who advertise who are in independent practice. Yes, sir; I do not believe I am very far off on that.

The CHAIRMAN. Ethically, you are not allowed to advertise; is that right?

Dr. SHELEY. Well, sir, I am not a member of the society. There is nothing to prevent me from advertising. But my thought on advertising has been that it should be educational rather than as to price. In other words, I have not felt, I have not had the disposition to conduct my business on a price basis. Now, I think my prices are right, but I do not think anybody comes in my place on the supposition that he is going to get a $15 article for $10. I do not think so, sir.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman has agreed that the reason he does not feel it necessary to advertise is because of the tremendous flow of traffic in that particular block, which happens to be from a realty value probably the second best block in Washington as to pedestrian traffic. Therefore, advertising would be superfluous in his particular business. He pays the difference in rent due to that mass of flow of traffic, which is quite logical. And as a result he does not need to advertise because he has that tremendous traffic there in the Mills Building with a large display, an interesting display, and he does attract people as a result, more than the department stores can, which are isolated on the second floor, that is, they have an isolated optometrical department on the second floor, and they have to advertise to keep up the consciousness and bring the people in. I think there is a little difference there.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Dr. MARSHALL. Doctor, how long did you say you had been in that location?

Dr. SHELEY. We went in that location 10 years ago last October. Dr. MARSHALL. Isn't it true there is directly across the street from you what is known as the Ross Co., which I think is

Dr. SHELEY (interposing). That is correct.

Dr. MARSHALL (continuing). One of your companies? How long have you had an optical department in there Mr. Kaufman?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I believe approximately a year and a half-something like that.

Dr. MARSHALL. Does that department have advertisements in the newspapers?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes.

Dr. MARSHALL. Yes. That is all.

Mr. KAUFMAN. It does not. Incidentally, we would have had a department in there long before that but we were not able to get an optometrist to qualify, otherwise there would have been one in there for a long time previous to that. I think that statement can be substantiated by members of the society.

Dr. MARSHALL. By qualified you mean that there were no available men in sight? Or you mean none that had passed the Board?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No, I don't mean that. I mean just what I said, "qualified." There were several available men. We would not employ them.

Dr. SHELEY. Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Kaufman, following what he says. Frankly, on that, I knew the men around town pretty well. I do not think you had very much choice at that time, did you, of men? Whom might you have put in there?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I say that for 10 years we did not have one in the Ross, Seventh Street store-no-I'll change that to about 8-I have got to look at you, Dr. Kraskin, to verify these things-I think that is approximately right. And for about 5 years we did not have one at the F Street store. Is that right, Doctor?

Dr. KRASKIN. Right.

Mr. KAUFMAN. In the interim we did have some, not numerous, but we did have some application from men very anxious to receive employment. We did not accept them because they did not qualify. When I say they did not qualify, they may have passed their board. I was not sure about that because we did not go into it that deeply. But they did not impress us as being the type of men we want handling the public, to be very frank. I think it is best not to enumerate who they were but we are very meticulous on whom we do employ. I think that answers the question.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other question?

Mr. SHIPE. In the spring, in the winter and spring telephone book or directory of 1938-39, you do have an advertisement?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes, sir. I said that we had discontinued it, sir.

Dr. MARSHALL. There is a new edition coming out.

Dr. SHELEY. I think that can be verified. I think it was discontinued possibly three months ago but I would not want to be exact on that.

Mr. SHIPE. You discontinued it at whose request?

Dr. SHELEY. Well, the consensus of opinion seems to be that any advertisement or the display of an advertisement in there

Mr. SHIPE. I do not want that.

Dr. SHELEY (continuing). Was unethical.

Mr. SHIPE. Who told you that?

Dr. SHELEY. We discussed it with different people around. Baker, Rauer; I think I discussed it with Etz.

Mr. SHIPE. Well, did the board of optometry discuss it with you. at all?

Dr. SHELEY. Well, after we had discussed it, and after we had withdrawn our advertisements we had some letter. Of course, in the discussion with the Board, I cannot name any particular extract, but we did get a form letter inasmuch as they had decided in their decision of theirs-I do not know just the legal phraseology of itbut to the effect it was not-they did not believe we should advertise or were entitled to advertise in the telephone book.

Mr. SHIPE. Do you have that letter with you?

Dr. SHELEY. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. SHIPE. Can you get it?

Dr. SHELEY. I do not believe I can. I would say I received that letter I think it is 6 weeks ago. Am I wrong about that? When was it?

Dr. KRASKIN. It is a couple of months-2 or 3 months.
Dr. SHELEY. Well, I said-2 or 3 months ago.

162220-39--13

Mr. SHIPE. Since this bill was introduced in Congress?

Dr. SHELEY. I would not want to say that. I think-I do not know when it was introduced. I think it was after.

Mr. SHIPE. What?

Dr. SHELEY. I say that I would say-wasn't this bill introduced in January? I do not know the exact date but I was told it was H. R. 278. I received that since January. I think that is positive. I would say a month or 6 weeks ago. That is just as a guess.

Mr. SHIPE. Do you know Mr. Kinsman?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Of 1320 F Street?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Do you know Dr. Warren Brown?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Do you know Dr. Pearlman?

Dr. SHELEY. I don't know Pearlman. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. In the Colorado Building.

Mr. SHIPE. Do you know Dr. Derau?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHIPE. A. L. Rose?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Uehler?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Hubert Warren?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. They all advertise in the very last issue of the telephone book, don't they?

Dr. SHELEY. I would not want to say. What ever the list shows is. I know there were several of us. I think Kinsman was one of them. Mr. SHIPE. Kinsman advertises?

Dr. SHELEY. Baker was another one. I would say about 3 months ago we, as I say, I am just telling this from memory, we agreed. Mr. SHIPE. Is that the advertisement?

Dr. SHELEY. Did you look at mine?

Mr. SHIPE. These are the names I read off.

Dr. SHELEY. Yes. Well, let's see what mine says here.

Mr. SHIPE. This is what I call your attention to.

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Now Kinsman, that is a private optometrist, aren't they?

Dr. SHELEY. Well, Rowler is the optometrist there. He has two associates. That is a corporation.

Mr. SHIPE. They do not have a department store.

Dr. SHELEY. Well, they have a department store—they have a kodak department and an optical department.

Mr. SHIPE. But there is nothing said in this advertisement about. that.

Dr. SHELEY. I would not want to say. I never read their advertisement.

Mr. SHIPE. Look at it, would you, please?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. They advertise a budget plan with easy weekly or monthly payments for your convenience?

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. They also advertise they will send, if you break your glasses, they will send for them and repair them and they return them. Just telephone.

Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. They don't even have to come in and see them at all, do they?

Dr. SHELEY. No.

Mr. SHIPE. In other words, a patient breaks his glasses that he might have had for 10 years and they send out and pick up the glasses and come down and give him the same lenses without examiningDr. SHELEY. That is not my fault.

Mr. SHIPE (continuing). His eyes or not. That is not your fault? Dr. SHELEY. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. Well, all these are private optometrists.

Dr. SHELEY. This is not private. This is a corporation, as I understand the thing.

Mr. SHIPE. They are optometrists, all these people in there? Dr. SHELEY. Yes. No; not all of them in there, as I remember. Rowler

Dr. KRASKIN. They have as many as five lay employees.

Dr. SHELEY. Five employees I think they have.

Dr. KRASKIN. It is a corporation, positively.

Mr. SHIPE. Let's take Dr. Pearlman, an optometrist, formerly with the Kahn Optical Co. He advertises that way. Is he a member of the optical society?

Dr. KRASKIN. No, sir.

Mr. Shipe, will you let me interject here

to keep the record correct? I imagine you want to do that?

Mr. SHIPE. Yes.

Dr. KRASKIN. There is a new set of code of ethics, a resolution passed which does away with all that, that no man can be a member of the District of Columbia Ophthalmic Society who advertises in any manner, shape, or form.

The CHAIRMAN. Since when is that?

Dr. KRASKIN. The president of the society can tell you that.

Dr. MARSHALL. I would say about a month ago. But understand, Mr. Chairman, I might further add to that this is practically a dead issue, of the phone book. Within a few days a new one will be out. You will see then all the advertisements, even to the heavy black listing of the individuals name is completely gone, even of nonmembers of the society.

Mr. SHIPE. By way of interpolation, you people just got together and talked with some lawyers and looking over the telephone directory and found that lawyers cannot advertise at all, not even in bold type, they cannot have their name in the telephone book in bold type is that what you did?

Dr. MARSHAL. You are telling me what we did?

Mr. SHIPE. That is what happened?

Dr. MARSHALL. No.

Dr. KRASKIN. We realize today it is an unethical practice which we want to do no longer, even if we did do it.

Mr. SHIPE. You suddenly developed that principle?

Dr. KRASKIN. I would not say "suddenly." It was an evolutionary thing. I have not done it in years. I used to work for department stores when I first started, and advertised for a department store.

Mr. SHIPE. At any rate, this resolution which you enacted and applied to optometrists, suggesting that they are violating a code of ethics if they put advertising similar to those to which I have called your attention in the telephone book, has been served upon the optometrists within the last couple of months?

Dr. KRASKIN. By unanimous vote.

Mr. SHIPE. I don't care if it was superunanimous.

Dr. KRASKIN. Well, nothing was imposed on them.

Mr. SHIPE. But the fact-I am trying to get the fact; the fact is the resolution on the code of ethics has been prepared and served on these people subsequent to the introduction of H. R. 278 and H. R. 5238; isn't that correct?

Dr. KRASKIN. Subsequent.

Dr. MARSHALL. No.

Mr. SHIPE. H. R. 278 was introduced in January 1939; is that correct?

Dr. MARSHALL. That code of ethics, if I may say, I think was considered in December, and was presented to the society.

Mr. SHIPE. It was introduced January 3, 1939 ?

Dr. MARSHALL. Yes.

Mr. SHIPE. I should like, if you will, to present us with a copy of that resolution or code of ethics.

Dr. MARSHALL. You will have to take that up with the Secretary's office.

Dr. KRASKIN. I am not speaking for the society. Dr. Marshall is. I am here representing the Board. I am pretty certain that Dr. Marshall will produce that code of ehtics, the new code of ethics. May I also clear the record?

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to make a statement?

Dr. KRASKIN. Yes; a statement for the board.

STATEMENT OF DR. LEWIS H. KRASKIN, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Dr. KRASKIN. Dr. Sheley was asked, 2 years ago when he changed from a corporation to individual practice with his partnership, did he take that action because of something that the society did. Two years ago the board of optometry was confronted with this situation. We were asked by a very large corporation in Washington, D. C., would they have the right to open up a number of optical departments in all of their stores and we told them we could not answer that question until we conferred with the Commissioners and asked their advice thereto. And the Commissioners referred us to the district attorney and also to the corporation counsel. Both the district attorney and the corporation counsel sent us letters telling us that it was illegal for any corporation to hire an optometrist.

Mr. LYON. I object. I think the letters from the Commissioner and the corporation counsel speak for themselves. The Doctor tried to introduce evidence on the trial but he did not have any proof of that whatsoever.

Dr. KRASKIN. We certainly did.

Mr. LYON. I object to it on the ground that he says they declared it to be illegal when the court held it is legal.