And I'm grinning, and the chairman is grinning, and at the same time I must say that now that we're safely on the House side for this meeting, instead of on the Senate side, he indicated to us that they really foundered on the Senate side.

Chairman METCALF. We don't have this beautiful new building. Representative DELLENBACK. I want you to understand that you're welcome to come and meet with us at any time.

Chairman METCALF. You've been a gracious host.

Representative DELLENBACK. But I do think that we have obligations, to look at our rules and regulations, and if that would be helpful, on both your side and our side, to make it possible so that they don't founder in a morass of rules and regulations.

Would you agree with that?

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Up to a point. I wouldn't want to get to that point where we foundered in a morass of cables, at times, and a person falling over us and our falling over them, trying to get to our responsibilities.

I think these things can go too far, but I think we certainly have a duty to open up the debates of the House and the Senate so that the people can see and hear what's going on.

Now, I don't know what the House Judiciary Committee, for example, would report in connection with this impeachment proceeding, but should this House or the other body ever get to the point of debating, voting on that issue-I'm not certain, I don't want to appear presumptuous in saying this, I'm talking about the other body now, and say the same with respect to my own.

Let me confine my remarks to the Senate. If the House should ever impeach and the Senate have to conduct a trial of impeachment, I think it would be absolutely vital that the debate, it's really not so much a debate the impeachment rules are already set forth in the Senate Manual, and they're so calculated as to move the trial along in an expeditious manner-I certainly think the proceedings of that trial ought to be viewed and heard by the American people because they're going to have to reach a judgment also, whatever judgment the Senate might reach in that situation.

I think it's going to be absolutely imperative that the American people feel that that judgment was objective and fair and correct, and I don't know how this can be done unless that trial is televised.

So I think we've got possibly something coming down the road in the very near future that's going to test whether we really mean what we say in this regard or not.

I just can't overly emphasize how important televising this development would be, if the burden is ever thrust upon the Senate to conduct an impeachment trial. I think you have certainly made some very worthwhile suggestions.

Public television is tremendously important to the education of the American people, and the more of this we have I think the better regard and the greater respect the American people are going to have for this institution.

And I think it's good not only for Congress, but it's important for our constitutional system that there be a rekindling of faith on the part of the American people in this institution which after all is the people's branch.

The suggestions that you have made and that others have made, I think, can contribute greatly to this end. I think it's an idea whose time has come.

Representative DELLENBACK. The very example you just gave now, the possibility that the House and the Senate are having some major events take place in the near future.

You talk about two issues—the coverage of the news which is basically the responsibility on our part, I think, of opening up so that our facilities are wide open, we can be asked anything, and two, going deliberately and firmly to education, not to sell a public relations story, but to be sure the public really understands how the Congress really functions, and what its role really is, because I think there is a confusion between the roles of the various parts of the Congress.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. That in itself is a public relations story. I'm not looking at that from the point of there being political gain, but there is a public relations story to be done, and this is the way that I think we can all conscientiously do it, simply letting the American people see through a window as to what the House and the Senate are doing.

Representative DELLENBACK. I would close, Mr. Chairman, Senator Byrd, by indicating my personal strong feeling that there is reform that needs to be going forward within the House, and I don't mean to intrude on the Senate proceedings.

Chairman METCALF. We will take judicial notice it is true in the Senate.

Representative DELLENBACK. We will leave that to your own discretion, and those of us listening should see this great courtesy; the Senate not criticizing the House, and the House not criticizing the Senate. And yet at the same time, as we open up Congress to allow the public to see what we are actually doing, I think we will make a great stride for reform.

We have already taken strides forward in reform but we have more things to do in connection with seniority, more things to do in connection with budgetary proceedings, and the like, and I am persuaded that not only will it be desirable from a news standpoint and an educational standpoint that we open up procedures, but I think it will give us, those of us present today on the witness table and here on this committee who want to continue the process of reform, added public support for that reform, because we will get more support from our Members as the Congress becomes more open.

We appreciate very much, Senator, your being a witness, and we appreciate your response to our questions.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Thank you, Mr. Dellenback.

I am in favor of reform that is needed, but not everything that is said to be reform is necessarily reform.

Obviously, we have some work that ought to be done, but I would not want by virtue of my talents to accede to the idea that everything suggested would be necessary reform, and would be necessarily in the best interests of the Congress.

At the same time, I think we have got to remember, and I am sure that you will agree with me in this, there is a lot of good in the rules that we have, and they have evolved over decades of experience, and I do not think we want to get the idea that reform would necessitate

our just throwing them all out the window, but I think we ought to try to keep the good, and improve as we go along, because as we meet new kinds of circumstances, we certainly have to continue to evaluate our procedures and upgrade them and improve them where they need improvement.

Representative DELLENBACK. Change for the sake of change would be absolutely foolish. Reform for the sake of improving procedures is needed.

Chairman METCALF. I am not going to keep you too long, but, Senator Byrd, as you mentioned, you are the author of a resolution for study of the feasibility of closed circuit television in the Senate.

As I understand it this would be a closed circuit system designed primarily for the use of Senators who are in their offices or in committees but who need to keep track of what is occurring on the Senate floor.

Now, I believe your concept is that we could install an unobtrusive system that could also be used by television broadcasters. Is that correct?

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. I would hope so, yes.

Chairman METCALF. Now, perhaps we could make this the first step, with that system available to the various networks for their use, if they wanted to use it for broadcasting of a vote, such as the dramatic vote overriding a veto, something of that sort.

Would not that be at least a sensible first step?

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. It would seem to me to be so, Mr. Chairman Out of the hearings may come better suggestions, but it would seem to me this improvement of communications among ourselves on the Hill, for example, on the Senate side there are one or two annexes being established, one, two, three blocks away at the Capitol, and the committees would be meeting in those annexes.

It seems to me there would be better communications established among our own committees and our own Members, and out of this I would hope that there could be a way found whereby the people through the television and radio media could have this insight into the more important workings, particularly the debates on a selected basis, whereas they have nothing now.

Chairman METCALF. Each of the networks want to put their own cameras in the galleries, and perhaps when you hold your hearings, and as our hearings continue they will comment further on this. But it would seem to me your concept of closed circuit television would provide an opportunity for those who wished to use it to cut in and broadcast portions of special interest to them. The broadcasters would be in charge of selecting the portions they want and the editing procedure.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Precisely, and it is not my desire, certainly I am not making the suggestion that we censure the debates.

Obviously, no channel can present every debate throughout every day. It would not be of interest to the American people in any instance, and it would not be commercially feasible, but there can be a way found, and I think the networks when they appear at my hearings can make a contribution in this regard, there can be a way found whereby we can achieve this objective.

Chairman METCALF. Thank you, Senator Byrd.

I know we will be working together on further development of this concept before your Committee on Rules. I recall that it was your committee that reported out the open hearing rule that our committees have adopted in the Senate.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Senator ROBERT C. BYRD. Thank you, gentlemen.

Chairman METCALF. We have been privileged to have before us the presidents of the American Broadcasting Co. and the Columbia Broadcasting System, and we now have the honor to meet with Mr. Julian Goodman, president of NBC.

It has been both helpful and a pleasure to have these distinguished network executives testify before us. I do not know of anyone more competent to talk to us about television than the next witness, Mr. Goodman.

You have been concerned with television coverage of the Congress for many years, and I think you helped set up that great television debate between Mr. Nixon and Mr. Kennedy, which was perhaps even more interesting than Watergate, and now you are the chief administrative officer and president of the National Broadcasting Co. You are certainly well qualified to help us and guide us in this endeavor. We are honored to have you here.

JULIAN GOODMAN, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BROADCASTING CO., INC.

Julian Goodman, 51, has been president of the National Broadcasting Com pany since 1966. He joined NBC as a radio news writer in Washington in 1945. Mr. Goodman, a native of Glasgow, Kentucky, and a graduate of George Washington University, was appointed manager of news and special events for the NBC television network in 1951. He has been involved in the production of TV coverage of political campaigns, elections and conventions, the John KennedyRichard Nixon debates, live Congressional hearings and other governmental news events. In 1959, Mr. Goodman became director of NBC news and public affairs and in 1965 was named NBC's chief administrative officer. Effective April 1, 1974, he will be chairman of the board of NBC.

Mr. GOODMAN. Thank you very much, Senator.

My name is Julian Goodman. I am president of the National Broadcasting Co.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here today to discuss the important and complex problems you are studying, and I hope that we may contribute to your study.

Let me say at the outset that NBC heartily endorses the principles that we perceive to be the objective of your committee's inquiry: to increase public understanding of the function and the activities of Congress. Because broadcasting is such a direct means of communicaing with all the public, the role it can play in meeting this objective has brought forth a great many ideas and proposals. I would like to comment on some of them and include some thoughts of my own.

I first began appearing in rooms like this when I was somewhat younger-in my twenties-working as director of news for NBC in Washington. From those days to the present we have consistently urged that the best way to expand and improve the public's understanding of the Congress would be to have the Senate and House take down the many obstacles they have placed in the way of direct coverage by television and radio journalists.

I recall once assigning an artist to make sketches of an important debate on the Senate floor, and he was ejected on the ground that what he was doing constituted picture taking which Senate rules prohibited.

On such points as this, and on how to improve day-to-day coverage of the work of Congress, I commend to your reexamination and special attention the excellent statement delivered here February 21 by Frank Jordan of NBC News on behalf of the Washington bureau chiefs for the three television network news organizations.

It seemed to me they had several highly practical suggestions that could be easily implemented by the Congress itself in the interest of improved and more efficient journalistic coverage.

I also urge you to consider the emphasis they placed on the value of a regular and close working relationship between the proper officials of the Congress and the network bureau chiefs and their colleagues representing other broadcast journalists. Their on-the-scene knowledge of the daily problems we are talking about here today will frequently be better than the suggestions of those of us who work in New Yorkan idea that is not entirely original with me.

I should like also to express NBC's full accord with what we gather to be the sense of the committee's position-that journalistic decisions should be left in the hands of the journalist, and there should be no conditions or restrictions that would limit such freedom. I believe there is nothing more vital to a fully informed public than a free press, and to remain that way it must be totally free of governmental control. Now, how should Congress go about achieving its goal of communicating with the American people more effectively.

The report prepared for this committee by the Congressional Research Service of the Library of Congress offers, it seems to me, an impressive analysis of the executive and legislative branches' relationships with the broadcast media.

Among the many significant points the report makes is this: "Whatever information reaches the American people about the Congress is the result largely of journalistic initiative."

That initiative has probably resulted in more broadcast coverage of Congress and more television appearances by Senators and Representatives than many people realize. In 1973, for example, the President appeared on television to make major statements 13 times-excluding regular news coverage and purely ceremonial occasions.

In most cases, for days in advance and for days after such appearances, the pros and cons of the issues he discussed were presented through coverage of other public spokesmen, particularly Members of Congress.

Our analysis of the data available shows that in 1973, well over 150 different congressional spokesmen appeared on the NBC Television Network in more than 1,000 separate appearances of varying lengths. By contrast, the President appeared approximately 148 times-of which about 20 percent were ceremonial occasions.

Because of the volume and variety of these appearances, covering a wide range of issues, they not only informed the public on the position of individual Congressmen, but they also helped the public understand more of the role of Congress as a body and how it deals with the issues.

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