preached, and he (Mr. Canning) thought it a sort of guarantee against doctrines such as had been imputed to him: it was, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." He had made inquiries respecting the reverend gentleman himself, and had found that he was highly respectable in character. many labouring men could not attend the churches for want of decent clothes; and that from the pressure of poverty the education of their children was often neglected-that there existed much disaffection, which, though not springing directly from want, was the result of designing men working on poverty. He hoped the House would take into its consideration the distresses of the labouring poor, for it would but have half done its work if it merely suppressed disaffection, which, while want prevailed, would continually recur. Among other means of relieving the distress without applying for public money, it had occurred to him that there was much waste land in that neighbourhood, of which the proprietors would willingly relinquish their rights in behalf of the poor for a term of years, if the government would also relinquish the taxes. Mr. Bennet expressed himself obliged to the right hon. gentleman for the opportunity afforded him of removing any erroneous impression which he might have been the means of occasioning. In the report which had been given of his speech on the night to which the right hon. gentleman alluded, he had seen many things which he did not state. He had been made to say, that the procession went to church bearing effigies, with the insignia of a pope and a bishop; that on their arrival at the church, they stripped the effigies of their robes, and threw them into Mr. Kennedy bore testimony to the high the fire; and that then a clergyman respectability of the petitioners, whose preached a sermon which was nothing less statements spoke too strongly for themthan sedition. Now, he stood in the judg-selves to need the aid of his assertions. ment of the House, whether he had said this. As to his having charged the clergyman with preaching sedition, all he had said on that subject was-" I conceive a sermon preached under such circumstances, to be sedition against man, and blasphemy against God." He was quite ready to admit that this clergyman, or any other who acted as he had done, thought he was doing right, but still he must disapprove of his conduct. STATE OF THe Labouring Poor of SCOTLAND.] Lord A. Hamilton said, the House were so often under the painful necessity of hearing of the distresses of the country, that he felt divided between the aversion to occupy their time, and the sense of duty to the county he represented. The petition which he had to present came from the presbytery of Hamilton, and gave the details of the misery and degradation of a large portion of that county. It was from a body of men who seldom approached that House-a presbytery, which consisted, as gentlemen acquainted with Scotland knew, of the clergymen of several parishes (in this case of 14). The petitioners stated, that according to the rules of the church government of Scotland, it was their duty to inquire into the state of their flocks. That they found that the wages of a labouring man were not sufficient to maintain a family-that (VOL. XLI.) When it was considered that an attention to the ordinances of religion, and a care for the education of their children, had been among the marked characteristics of the Scottish population, the distress would be conceived to be severe which had compelled them to neglect these duties. That part of the country from which the petition came was in this respect peculiarly unfortunate, that having been the seat of flourishing manufactures, the persons once engaged in them were now thrown as burthens upon the landholders. Sir W. De Crespigny hoped that the political economists, who had ridiculed the plan he had proposed for examination (that of Mr. Owen), would think of some practical means of relieving the poor. Lord Castlereagh said, his majesty's government had not been inattentive to the distresses of Scotland, but they doubted whether they could take measures to relieve it by public money, without injustice to the whole empire. Cases of as severe distress had occurred in other parts, especially in England; and in the answer of the earl of Liverpool to the duke of Hamilton, the noble earl had stated that he saw no principle on which he could apply the resources of the country at large to the relief of that local distress. The proprietors of land in Scotland had the power, though they were not subjected to the obligation, of assessing (4 U) 1395] HOUSE OF COMMONS, State of the Labouring Poor of Scotland. [1996 prietary of Scotland had left nothing in their power undone, to mitigate the suf ferings, and relieve the wants of their distressed countrymen. But what he meant to refer to in the question which he yesterday took occasion to put to the noble lord was, with regard to the commercial relations of the country, and the general state of its manufactures, into which he thought a serious inquiry should be immediately instituted. It was obviously the change which had taken place in the country with respect to commerce and manufactures, that had occasioned the existing distress, and parliament was called upon to consider of some means to remedy the evils resulting from that change. themselves for the relief of the poor; and though they had gone as far as it was expected they should in the way of voluntary contributions, it was to be recollected that many proprietors in this part of the island had been taxed for the maintenance of the poor to the whole extent of their property, and it was only by that heavy contribution that the cry of the poor was prevented from reaching that House. He allowed there was a peculiar pressure of distress in the district alluded to, arising, among various causes, from that alternation of manufacturing prosperity and stagnation, which was the distinguishing feature of the present day. As to relief from the public, it was known that some time ago a certain sum was placed in the hands of commissioners, to be issued to relieve manufacturing distress, security being given for the re-payment. Half a million of that sum now remained unexpended in the hands of the commissioners, and was strictly applicable to that part of Scotland, and would be advanced if any visible security for re-payment in three, four, or five years, could be assigned. It was also the intention of the chancellor of the exchequer to move a vote under the head of civil contingencies, which would obviate difficulties as to the securities to be as signed. The gentlemen of Scotland, therefore, had the power of assisting themselves. For a long series of years they had been free from the evil of compulsory assessments; he hoped they would now be inclined to avail themselves of the power they possessed, especially as the whole burthen might not fall upon them within a year, but might be extended over a long course of years. In this part of the country there was no relief from the immediate pressure of an assessment which might operate within the year to the extent of the whole of the property assessed. But in Scotland the proprietors had no such burthen upon their rental. Would it then be fair, that the proprietors of England, amidst all the distress which surrounded them, should be called upon, not only to relieve the distress of their own poor, but also to contribute to the relief of the poor of Scotland? It would at least become the proprietors of that part of the kingdom, to show that they had done all that was in their power for the poor of their respective districts, before they made any application of this nature. Mr. Douglas alleged, that the pro Mr. J. P. Grant said, the House had now before it a petition in favour of a number of industrious deserving manufac turers, which contained such a detail of calamity as could not be heightened either by the speech of his noble friend or by any colouring that eloquence could confer, and yet the noble lord gravely and coolly said, that neither parliament nor government could do any thing for the relief or mitigation of such calamity, beyond a certain sum that might be lent on security for its repayment. But how did it become the noble lord and his colleagues thus to reply to a petition concerning the distressed manufacturers, considering that the great cause of their misery was to be found in the policy which those ministers had been pursuing for a series of years? The noble lord had observed, that the Scotch proprietors should show an adequate sympathy for their poor countrymen, before they applied to that House for pecuniary relief, especially as those proprietors had a power of levying taxes upon themselves. This sympathy, he would tell the noble lord, had been evinced by the Scotch proprietors, who had levied taxes upon themselves for the relief of their poor; but the fact was, that the property which they possessed was not sufficient to afford the amount of relief required. But, independently of the taxes paid in common by these proprietors, each was found as beneficent as his means qualified him towards his distressed neighbour. It came to his knowledge, that the relation of an hon. friend of his, who was a member of that House, allowed, out of his own private purse, no less than eight pounds a week for the relief of the poor in his immediate vicinity. But the noble lord appeared to think | that, notwithstanding the experience of this country, Scotland should be visited with the evils of the poor laws. To such a proposition, he hoped that House would never give its assent. But it was vain to think of any palliatives for the distress of the people, or to attempt to evade its consideration. The noble lord and his colleagues might go on in persuading parliament to adopt coercive measures to meet some part of the consequence resulting from the present distress, but those measures must be inefficient while the great cause of the evil was allowed to remain without redress or inquiry. Lord Castlereagh disclaimed any wish to transfer the poor laws to Scotland; but he would repeat, that while the proprietors of England were incumbered with the poor's rate, in addition to their other burthens, it would be too much to expect that they should also contribute from their funds to the relief of the poor of Scotland, while the proprietors of that country were altogether exempt from the poor laws. Mr. Ellice animadverted upon the declaration of the noble lord, that government was ready to lend money for the relief of the people, provided security were given for its repayment. But when the noble lord made this proposition, he would ask, whether it was possible that he or any reasoning man thought that the present distress was merely temporary? For his own part, he believed that this distress, so far from being temporary, was increasing every day; and he was persuaded that it must continue to become still worse, unless measures were promptly taken to relieve the trade and finances of the country. He hoped that before the recess the House would have some opportunity of delivering an opinion upon these important topics, and especially upon that of finance. The House might go on in passing coercive measures to meet the effect of the present system, but these were only temporising expedients, and unless the great questions to which he had referred, should be gone into, parliament would have closed its present sittings without having done any good. They might think that they had removed alarm, but let it be recollected that the evil which gave rise to alarm-that the distress and discontents of the people, still remained. Mr. V. Blake suggested, that to secure the payment of the interest of the proposed loan, a new toll should be imposed on the roads in the district to which that loan was to be granted. Mr. Wilberforce hoped it was the impression upon every man's mind in this case, that some relief should be afforded to the poor people to whom the petition referred; for in a country where there was so much wealth, it would be quite inhuman to allow persons of this description to suffer absolute want. Were these poor persons among the disaffected, that might be a reason for feeling less sympathy in their favour; but even that would not justify the House in turning a deaf ear to their complaints. Here, however, those, for whom relief was supplicated were as remarkable for the propriety of their demeanour, as for the severity of their sufferings. There was, no doubt, a material difference between the situation of England and Scotland, in consequence of the application of a portion of the poor's rate in this country to the payment of wages but this application was one of the many evils belonging to the system of the poor's rates, to which system he hoped that House would devote its serious attention; for the evils of this system were of grievous magnitude. Mr. Calcraft concurred with the noble lord, that as this was a question between England and Scotland, it would be unfair to burthen the proprietors of the former for the relief of the poor of the latter, especially as the proprietors of Scotland were exempt from the poor laws, through the mal-administration of which the people of England suffered so severely. But while he deprecated the mal-administration of this system, he begged to be understood as a decided advocate for the principle of the poor laws. If any proposition should be made for the repeal of those laws he would stand up as its opponent. For he was quite convinced of the equity of the principle of those laws, however he lamented their improper administration, and especially the misappropriation of the funds collected by those laws in the payment of wages. Sir J. Mackintosh protested against the view which had been taken of this subject on both sides of the House. He protested, in the first place, against the observation of his hon. friend, that this was a question between England and Scot and, and secondly, against the doctrine of the noble lord, that no relief should be granted to the poor, who were the subject of this petition, unless the proprietary of the district should submit to the poor's rate. To the observation of his hon. friend he would say, that he thought parliament equally bound to attend to the complaints, or to relieve the distress of every part of the inhabitants of Great-Britain, all of whom had contributed to form the fund from which that relief was solicited; and to the position of the noble lord he would observe, that it would not be right to extend the poor laws to Scotland. But while he said this, let it not be understood that he was an enemy to the principle of these laws. That principle was indeed so entwined with the institutions of this country, that any one who should propose the repeal of the laws which rested upon it, must be deemed fitter for another place than for that House. But if these laws were restored to their original use, they would create no dissatisfaction in the country. It was their mal-administration, and especially the misappropriation of the funds in payment of wages, which had occasioned so much discontent. But, to return to the petition, he trusted that its prayer would be duly attended, and that some relief would be granted to such a deserving class of sufferers who, in fact, desired only to be employed and to be rewarded for their industry by the means of common subsistence. Lord A. Hamilton, on moving that the petition should be printed, stated, that it was a mistake to suppose, that there were no poor's rates in Scotland, those rates being very considerable, although there were no poor laws in that country. But even if the system of poor laws were established in Scotland, were gentlemen aware that there were no less than between 20 and 30,000 persons in Glasgow who were not natives of that country, and how were those persons to be relieved? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had last year obtained from parliament the grant of 100,000l. for building churches in Scotland, on the ground that the people were in want of such churches, but there was a paragraph in this petition stating that the people could not go to church from want of clothing. Would it not, then, be but considerate in the right hon. gentleman and his colleagues, to consider of the means of supplying the people with that clothing, without which these new churches would be of no utility. Mr. Maberly argued against the principle upon which it was proposed to accede to the prayer of this petition. The manufacturers and merchants of Scotland had, as well as the same classes in other places, materially profited from that monopoly of trade which Great Britain had enjoyed throughout the war. Those people, through whose labour that profit was obtained, were now distressed in consequence of the cessation of that monopoly; and was it fair, that instead of having their distress relieved by the capitalists whom they had enriched, that relief should be demanded from the public funds? He called upon the House to resist such a demand; any concession to it must serve to establish a most dangerous precedent. Ordered to be printed. SCOTCH BURGHS.] Lord A. Hamilton rose to move for the re-appointment of the Committee to inquire into the state of the Scotch Burghs. He understood, that no opposition on the part of ministers was intended to the motion. The only alteration he should propose, was, to substitute, in the place of a gentleman who was not likely to attend, another hon. member. The report that was made by the former committee, was before the House, and he could appeal to it, as confirming every observation he had ever uttered on the subject. The abuses proved to exist, were so gross, so perpetual, and he might say, so flagitious, that nothing but an investigation into the causes could provide a remedy. These abuses sprung from the practice of self-election in corporate bodies endowed with the power of perpetuating the abuse. When he had introduced the subject first to the consideration of the House, it was retorted upon him, that whatever he might profess, his object was parliamentary reform. He repeated now what he then stated, that neither himself nor the petitioners from the Royal Burghs sought parliamentary reform directly, although neither he nor they disguised from the House, that any alteration in the burghs must collaterally and in a small degree affect the representation in that House. If parliamentary reform grew out of the change, it would do so collaterally, and not directly. The strength of the existing abuses were fully illustrated in the fact, that three most populous places, Inverness, Aberdeen, and even Edinburgh, were under a sentence of disfranchisement. As to Edinburgh, though he saw in his place the right hon. member (Mr. W. Dundas), yet it was now a question before the Court of Session, whether there had been an election or not? Aberdeen was in a worse state, as it had no vote whatever. Inverness, he believed to be in the same predicament. Under these circumstances, he was warranted in asking the House to pursue the inquiry further. The noble lord concluded with moving," that the Petitions from the Royal Burghs of Scotland be referred to a Select Committee." Mr. W. Dundas observed, that the noble lord, in moving for the renewal of the Committee, had said a great deal, of which he (Mr. D.), had never heard before, and which was not in any degree confirmed, even by the luminous report of the last committee. As to the election of Edinburgh, the only question arose from the chance absence of one of the magis trates. The noble lord had stated the Burgh of Aberdeen to be bankrupt; that he denied, and dared him to the proof. The noble lord had that night struggled to show, that parliamentary reform was not his object; he believed the noble lord before to feel that parliament would not suffer those corporate rights, guaranteed by the articles of the Union, to be shaken. All that could be expected was, to replace the boroughs in the state in which they stood previously to that compact, so that no burgess should be made liable to debts, over which he had no control. gent rose, pursuant to notice, to move, "That there be laid before this House, a return of the number of persons liable to be struck off from the Chelsea Out Pension List, in consequence of His Royal Highness the Prince Regent's Proclamation, dated 28th October 1819; distinguishing those who originally enlisted for seven years under the Act 46 Geo. 3rd, whose time of service, according to engagement, has expired, and who are entitled under that act to certain pensions in consideration of wounds." His object in so moving was, to be enabled to move hereafter, for leave to bring in a bill to expunge so much from the act, commonly called the Chelsea Pension Act, as affected a certain number of persons now deprived, unjustly as he conceived, of pensions intended for the reward of their service. He did this with the greater pleasure, not only as he conceived that his motion affected a strong subject of public inquiry, and a subject involving points of no small constitutional importance; but also, because it affected a class of persons, than whose claims, he would venture to say, on the justice, the sympathy, the huma nity, and the gratitude of this country, it would be difficult to conceive any of a more sacred or imperious character. These men had come forward at the very time when it was found necessary to recruit the army by a new and invigorating system, in order to enable it to cope against a veteran and successful enemy. They had earned their well-contested glories, and had now retired on small but honourable pensions; which pensions, if the law had any power at all, the law of the land ought to establish as their property. He required parliament to look at their own acts, and to look at, what he thought, the illegal proclamation of October last. That proclamation set forth, that all those persons (excepting certain regiments only from its operation) who should not report themselves for a certain length of service, should be deprived of the pensions which they then enjoyed. Now, there were many hundreds who would be affected by this proclamation; particularly those (whose claims he should support) who were originally destined for seven years service; and who, having received certain wounds, were entitled to certain pensions, settled by the provisions of what was commonly called Mr. Windham's act. Such persons CHELSEA PENSION LIST.] Lord Nu- having received their discharges, and Mr. Forbes reminded the House, that during the discussions of last session, he had uniformly maintained, that the burgh of Aberdeen was not bankrupt. He could now prove that facts justified his opinion: Aberdeen was paying an interest of four per cent on all its debts, and in the course of a year five per cent would be paid up on the arrears of the two last years. The town of Aberdeen was considered good security, and most of its creditors would feel greatly disappointed were the debts paid off. He did not rise to oppose the motion, for as far as the labours of the first Committee went, they were as productive of as little evil as of good. The motion was agreed to, and Committee appointed. |