lieves, several hundred unoffending persons were severely wounded, and some killed on the spot, while, owing to the endeavour of so many thousand persons to escape from this continued, persevering, and unrelenting outrage, they were driven one upon another, so as, in some cases, to press each other to death, break the limbs of others, and occasion many to be trampled upon, thereby producing a scene of complicated horrors, of which no powers of language possessed by the petitioner can convey to the House an adequate notion; that the petitioner beheld the whole of this frightful scene with feelings which can never be erased from his mind, and the impression of which would render it highly criminal if he forbore to do his duty to the unhappy sufferers, to his country, to the cause of justice, and to the House, by thus solemnly impeaching the veracity of the various statements made by parties implicated, and criminal in those unparalleled atrocities; that the petitioner, for the reasons above stated, and that the House may not be taken by surprise, by ex parte statements, and may not be led to adopt measures derogatory of its honour and dignity, but may, on the other hand, be induced to institute such rigorous and solemn inquiries as may, through the means of its power, bring the criminal authors who appear to be above the reach of the ordinary tribunals, and above the humble means of the sufferers, to condign punishment, humbly prays, that he may be permitted to prove all and every of the allegations contained herein at the bar of the House." Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. CAMELFORD ELECTION.] The Resolution of the 7th of July last [see vol. 40, p. 1537] being read, Mr. D. W. Harvey-said, the House had, in the last session, agreed to two resolutions relative to the borough of Camelford. One of these was, that the House would, shortly after its meeting, take into consideration the two reports which had been drawn up relative to the last election for Camelford; the other was, that the warrant of the Speaker should not be issued, for a new writ, for members to serve for that borough, until ten days after parlia ment had met. He wished that the period for issuing the warrant should be farther postponed till the 6th of January next; and also, that the House should enter (VOL. XLI.) into a committee to consider of these reports. He should therefore move, "That Mr. Speaker do not issue his warrant to make out a new writ for the electing of two burgesses to serve in this present parliament for the borough of Camelford, in the room of John Stewart, esq., and Lewis Allsop, esq., whose election has been determined to be void, before 6th January next." The resolution was agreed to; after which Mr. Harvey gave notice, that he would on Wednesday se'nnight move, "That the House do resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to take into consideration the two reports of the committee on the Camelford election." BANK OF ENGLAND.] Mr. Grenfell wished to know from the right hon. gentleman opposite, whether any and what arrangements had been made for paying to the Bank of England part of the sum of 5,000,000l., which, under the recommendation of the parliamentary committee that sat in the last session on the affairs of the Bank, was to be put in an immediate train of payment. According to his recollection, the arrangement agreed to on that occasion was, that a sum amounting to 5,000,000l. should be paid between the months of July last and April; but as some misunderstanding had taken place on this subject, he should be obliged to the right hon. gentleman if he would favour him with correct information. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the House would do him the justice to recollect, that, when the discussion of the affairs of the Bank took place, he stated, that the necessary arrangement for raising a sum of money for the service of the year rendered it unlikely that any very early payment could be made to the Bank, unless that body chose to afford the usual accommodation with respect to the loan, by which they would be enabled to repay themselves a very large sum. They had, however, declined that accommodation, and the benefits they would have derived from it. He had, notwithstanding, to state, that a very considerable sum had been paid, to the Bank of England; and arrangements had been formed, by the operation of which, the directors of the Bank were satisfied, that the sum of 5,000,000. would be paid by the time pointed out by parliament. He therefore saw no reason for altering or encroaching on the system of arrangement which parliament had (2 L) deemed it advisable to adopt with respect to the Bank. THE NEW PENAL BILLS.] Mr. Brougham wished to ask the noble lord opposite, whether he meant to persist in the notice he had given last night, to move the order of the day on Thursday next, for the second reading of one of the bills which he had introduced? The reason why he asked this question was obvious; because, whichever of those bills came first to be discussed, the debate consequent on it would involve the discussion of the whole system to which that bill had reference. He would ask the noble lord, whether it was a decorous proceeding towards the country, after three days notice, and occupied as they would be that evening, in an important discussion, to call on them to consider a measure which went to effect a most extensive change in the constitution of the country-an alteration greater than ever was contemplated in the memory of man, by any one act of the legislature? Lord Castlereagh said, he saw no reason for altering the proposition which the House had adopted last night, namely, to read the bill (which had been printed and handed round in connexion with the others) a second time on Thursday next. The learned gentleman had, in his opinion pushed the connexion between the bills too far. The sooner they came to the discussion of the principle, the sooner they would separate the bill from all the misrepresentation with which the learned gentleman seemed so anxious to surround it, during his short speech of last night. That speech made him extremely desirous to come to close quarters on the measure, in order that the country might understand what the bill really was to which the learned gentleman and those around him attributed such fearful qualities, and that it should be completely freed from the misrepresentations that had been thrown upon it. Mr. Brougham said, as there was no question before the House, he certainly had not a right to answer the noble lord, but he might be permitted to observe, that his having studiously endeavoured to surround the measure with misrepresentation, as had been alleged, so far from being a reason for rapid and immature decision, afforded the best possible ground for a short delay. The bill itself could not be affected by his misrepresentations: it might be laid in its own natural "features" as the noble lord would call them, before the public; and its provisions might then. be argued by the country and the House, with that deliberation and calmness for the exercise of which the delay of a few days was absolutely necessary. If the noble lord would not listen to him-if he would not consent to that delay-then he would say to the speaker and to the House, that, in common decency, some little time ought to be allowed for them to communicate with their constituents, whose most valuable and sacred, and until now, he would have said, inalienable rights and privileges, were about to be overturned by the system recommended by his majesty's ministers. Lord Folkstone said, he had gone to the proper office and got a copy of the bill; and he defied any individual who had procured it, and who had turned over one or two of its pages, to say, that he could be at all prepared, considering the labour gentlemen were likely to go through that night, and the important discussion which was fixed for to-morrow, to decide on so important a measure on Thursday. It was impossible for any gentleman who examined the bill, and saw the numerous and complicated provisions which it contained, to be prepared to discuss it on Thursday, so as to justify his conduct to his constituents, for the vote he might give. Why should a bill of such importance be hurried through the House in this manner? Was it that the people should know nothing of it until it was passed? Were they so anxious to get rid of those meetings, that the bill, which restricted the assembling of the people, was to be hastened forward, so as to prevent the people from assembling to state their opinion with respect to the measure itself? If it were hurried forward with such precipitation, it could neither be understood in the country nor in that House. He hoped the noble lord would agree to the proposition of his learned friend, and postpone the second reading of the bill for a few days. Mr. Bennet earnestly wished the noble lord to put off for a short time the discussion of a measure which he deliberately and advisedly considered to be subversive of the constitution. He was most anxious, as the bill would effect such a change in the constitution, that the House of Commons should be assembled together to meet it; and he now gave notice, that he would to-morrow move that the House be called over. full information being laid on their table, to enable them to understand correctly all the circumstances connected with the situation of the country. STATE OF THE COUNTRY.] Lord Althorp said, he could most unaffectedly assure the House, that he felt more oppressed on the present occasion, than he had ever before done when the House had There were only two grounds on which honoured him by listening to what he had the House could agree to the measures to offer to their notice. The importance now proposed-either a perfect confidence of the question struck him as very great, in his majesty's ministers, a decided coneven when he gave notice of his intended viction that they would propose nothing motion; but what had occurred since-he that was not proper; or that the papers meant the introduction of those bills, the laid before parliament gave the most full object of which the noble lord last night and complete information respecting the stated-had increased the importance of state of the country. Now, with respect the question so extremely, that he felt to the first point, he thought no gentleunfeignedly sorry he was the person des- man would argue that measures of this tined to bring forward this momentous kind ought to be carried merely on the subject. He wished very much that principle that confidence was due to his some person more able to impress its im- majesty's ministers. Therefore, he inportance on the House than he was, ferred, that the House, in agreeing to the had given notice of the motion; but feel- adoption of severe measures, ought to be ing it to be his most imperious duty to satisfied that the information contained in draw the attention of the House to the those papers afforded a full justification subject, and having given notice that he of their conduct. Alluding to the papers would do so, he begged of the House to that had been laid on the table, he should extend to him that indulgence, while he state generally, the impression which they delivered his sentiments, which they had had made on his mind. They might be frequently done on former occasions. On divided into two distinct classes-those that referred to the period preceding the 16th of August, and those that related to circumstances which occurred subsequently to that time. The statements contained in those papers showed, that in Lancashire the magistrates apprehended considerable danger before the 16th of August. But after the meeting, Mr. Spooner wrote word, that "he was perfectly satisfied the rising was not likely to take place in that part of the country." Danger, therefore, was not then apprehended there. Lord Fitzwilliam, who was attending the assizes at York, wrote, "that there was no disposition to create a disturbance amongst the inhabitants of the West Riding of the county of York." With respect to Lancashire, an alteration seemed to have taken place since the meeting of the 16th of August. Prior to that period it was said, that a system of training had been adopted, but no mention was made of arms. after the meeting of the 16th of August, arms were alleged to have been prepared. Since the events of the 16th of August, symptoms of irritation were observable, it was stated, in different parts of the country. Meetings had taken place in Yorkshire and in Scotland, and a simultaneous meeting, for purposes which had not before been contemplated, was spoken of as fixed for the 1st of November. He would wish to call the attention all sides of the House it was admitted, that the state of the country was most alarming. Every gentleman on the other side of the House had allowed that great cause of alarm existed, though that alarm was traced to different sources. If, then, it was agreed by all, that the country was thus situated, surely it was necessary that the House, in passing the measures which they were called on to adopt, should proceed with the utmost deliberation, and take the greatest possible pains to satisfy them selves that what they did was not only not more than was necessary, but that the measures they pursued were exactly applicable to the danger which appeared to threaten the state. It was, therefore, necessary for the House to be clearly convinced, that the existing laws were not sufficient to meet the exigencies of the time; that measures of coercive and vigorous nature were necessary to be resorted to; and, lastly, that the bills proposed by the noble lord were those which were exactly applicable to the dangers that were to be encountered and which they had reason to hope would check it. To enable them to come to this conclusion, it appeared to him, that every possible information should be laid before the House. He did not pretend to recollect precedents, but he believed such a question was never before brought under the consideration of the House, without But . opposite said, that the Riot act was read three times, and that one of the magistrates, in his attempt to read it, was knocked down and trampled on. Now, it was somewhat strange, that if this circumstance had occurred, it should not have been mentioned by Mr. Hay. Nothing could be more natural, than that he should have noticed this serious accident occurring to one of his brother magistrates. If then, such a difference arose between the statements of the noble lord and those of Mr. Hay, did it not show clearly the necessity of further information? The House, he contended, had a right to be informed of every thing which took place, not merely at the meeting of the 16th, but also what had occurred previously and subsequently to that period; for it was upon the whole of these matters that the measures of the noble lord were said to be founded. The House had at least a right to expect, that in forming their judgment upon those measures they should be put on the same footing with respect to information as the ministers themselves. of the House to this point, because he, the meeting dispersed. The noble lord conceived that this also would form part of the examination which his motion would call for. It appeared, that the meeting of the 16th of August was assembled for the discussion of a particular question. There was no mention before that, that it was to be for an illegal purpose; but since then quite another character and account had been given of it. Now, he wished to impress this upon the consideration of the House, because it showed that there were chasms and defects in the information before them, which ought to be filled up, before they could well consider of, or agree to, the measures proposed by the noble lord. It would, indeed, in his opinion, be quite inconsistent with the duties of the House to pass any such measures, without the most deep and serious consideration; first, into the causes which were said to require them, and then into the necessity of the measures themselves. Disturbances were said to have taken place in Scotland: into these he would wish that inquiry should be made; for he again begged to remind the House that it would be impossible to provide any effec- Another point respecting the meeting, tual remedy, unless the origin and nature which, in his opinion, the House should of the disorders were precisely ascertained. have explained, was the absence of the The state of the county of Lancaster was general of the district, sir John Byng, on alluded to, but it would not be sufficient the occasion. It was very generally said, that we should know what had occurred and he believed it, that if sir John Byng on the 16th of August, but also what had had been present, the result of the meetoccurred previously to that time. Full ing would not have been as fatal as it was. and complete information was necessary Why, then, was he not present? It would in order that the proposed measures should naturally be supposed that, as the comnot act merely as a palliative or a tempo-manding officer of that district, he should rary, but should operate as an effectual be at the post of danger. It was not, and permanent remedy. The statements however, the case; but what was the of the noble lord (Castlereagh) and of cause? Why, the magistrates themselves his colleagues would not be sufficient. acknowledge that sir John Byng was at The assertions of any honourable mem- Manchester on the 14th, and offered his bers could not be taken for facts in debate personal assistance in case it should be where the proof of those assertions was found necessary; but the magistrates innot given. The chief ground on which formed him that there was no danger, and ministers went, was the letter of Mr. Hay, that his attendance would not be required. but this itself required much explanation; Sir John Byng then said, that he would be His majesty's ministers had since seen, within the reach of an express, and would and held conversations with that gentle- attend if it should be deemed necessary. man, and they were bound to explain what He was not, however, sent for. Now, they had further heard upon the subject if there was any blame to be attributed in of the letter. Unless they did so, it was this respect, it should be to the magisimpossible for the House to form any cor- trates, who had declared the attendance rect judgment on it. Indeed, the state- of the gallant general unnecessary. At ments of the noble lord (Castlereagh) all events, the fact was one which showed were quite at variance, or at least very a strong ground for farther inquiry, and it different from those which had been given was, even if nothing else was concerned, by Mr. Hay. Mr. Hay stated in his let-due to the characters of all the parties, ter, that the Riot act had been read, and that such inquiry should be instituted. Another point to which he wished to draw | posed by a delay for inquiry. As to the the attention of the House was, that a measure which went to prevent military great portion of the matter which had drillings, he would not argue. He saw been laid before them was upon anonymous in those drillings nothing of good and evidence. It might be necessary, he much of evil. With respect to the meawould not deny, that in some cases, where sure proposed for repressing them, thereevidence was given of the state of dis- fore, he offered no opposition. But the turbed districts, the names of the per- other measures he could not consider in sons giving it should be concealed; but the same point of view. That which rethen, did it not look in this, and indeed stricted the right of traverse to indictin almost all cases, like the evidence of ments under particular circumstances, spies? Did it not seem as if some of the could not operate until the next assizes. persons had made the evidence for the The delay, therefore, would not affect purpose of giving it? What was more that. Then it was next proposed, that a natural under such circumstances than to power should be given to search for arms. believe that the persons who swore to the Now, it did not appear, from any thing existence of pikes in several places, might contained in the papers before the House, have purchased them for the sake of giving or from any thing which the noble lord information afterwards? At all events, opposite had said, that they had been acwas not anonymous testimony obtained cumulated in such numbers as to render under such circumstances to be viewed a short delay of the measures respecting with suspicion? Indeed, it could not be them dangerous. There might have been otherwise, if the House recollected what twenty or thirty pikes in the possession had occurred on this subject two years of individuals in particular places; but ago. He would then put it to the House, that, in his mind, was not sufficient to whether they ought to pass the proposed warrant the immediate passing of the measures on such evidence-whether they proposed measure, without a strict inquiry. would let the matter rest on the prudence, With respect to the suppression of meetthe discretion, and integrity of such in- ings, he contended, that when magistrates formants, as they were told gave this in- were prepared to oppose their violence, if formation, but of whom they knew no. any, when it was seen that they had suffithing more than that it was said they gave cient force to disperse the largest of them, it? He contended that such a proceeding it could not be supposed that any danger would be calculated more to excite and could result from a delay of the measures increase, than to diminish the public respecting them. It might or might not alarm. be necessary at other periods, to pass some of the proposed bills; but what he contended for was, that there could no danger arise at present from that kind of delay which would be necessary for the purposes of inquiry. In every state there might be some political evils, but when it was proposed to correct those evils, the measures by which that was to be effected should be seriously and maturely consi dered. As to the objection respecting the Manchester magistrates, he contended that it was not a fair one. He did not think that it had been properly brought against the amendment of his right hon. friend on a former evening; nor did he think it was of greater weight against the motion with which he should conclude. His motion, like the amendment to which he alluded, was made with a view to information upon those subjects in which the House were called to legislate. Those gentlemen who said that the country was in danger; that all law and authority were attempted to be trampled under foot; that These were the reasons which occurred to him to show that a committee ought to be appointed to take the whole of the matters into consideration. One objection which he supposed would be urged against his proposition was, that it would occasion a very inconvenient delay; and another, that it would embrace an inquiry into the conduct of the magistrates at Manchester, which it was said would more properly come before another tribunal. To the first he might use the argumentum ad hominem, and say, that if the noble lord and his colleagues had known of those proceed ings at Manchester and elsewhere before the 16th of August, why had they not called parliament together sooner? But this argument he did not mean to press, because if the House believed just grounds for interference to exist, they might fairly say, that the country should not suffer because the noble lord was to blame. He denied, however, that any inconvenience could arise on the principal measures pro |