So much for the general fiscal situation.

Mr. ANDERSON. Colonel Greeley, if I may ask you a question here: Did you separate in your statement the receipts from the different sources, such as grazing, etc.?

Colonel GREELEY. I have given them by three classes, Mr. Chairman: Receipts from the use of timber; from the use of the forage; and from all other sources.

Mr. ANDERSON. Very well.

Colonel GREELEY. Would you like to have those reiterated?

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, if they are in the record, that is all I want. Colonel GREELEY. Well, I will just make sure about it and put them in now. The receipts for timber for 1923 were $2,721,876.20; from grazing, $2,341,485.85; and from all other sources, $272,456.08, making a total of $5,335,818.13.

AREA OF NATIONAL FORESTS.

The protection of the National Forests from fire continues necessarily to be one of our principal activities. During the past fiscal year, the net area within the National Forests shows an increase, by 399,000 acres, partly through the purchase of lands under the Weeks Law, and partly through certain additions made from the public. domain in the various Western States.

We now have a total net area of 157,236,000 acres.
Mr. LEE. That includes the western lands?

Colonel GREELEY. Including the western lands and the Weeks law purchases. Of that total area, about 86,000,000 acres carry what we call a Class A fire hazard. Those are the areas which require a special protective organization, in addition to the organization for handling timber sales and other current business. The remaining 71,000,000 acres of Class B fire hazard, which includes all the National Forests in Alaska, where the fire risk is very low, and other areas where we have found by experience that the average fire conditions are seldom serious, are areas which do not require any special protective organization.

PROTECTION AGAINST FOREST FIRES.

The cost of fire protection for 1923, including all the emergency expenditures and the increased compensation paid over and above basic salaries, was $2,277,000, or a little over 26 mills per acre on the area of Class A fire hazard.

The record for the year showed a total of nearly 5,000 forest fires, 75 per cent of which were extinguished before they had reached an area of 10 acres. The total area that burned over was 259,000 acres, and the total damage done to Government property about $193,000.

This makes the fourth season-and I may say the fire season of 1923 was the most favorable in climatic conditions, by and large, that we have had for many years-it makes the fourth season during which we have been able to protect the National Forests with an annual loss of less than .2 of 1 per cent of the area under protection. The question of fire protection is, of course, closely related to the administration of our current administrative business. We have been anxious-possibly too anxious-to increase the receipts from

the National Forests, and to convert those big reservoirs of virgin timber out in the Northwest into going operations, with timber cuttings going on, local companies established, and revenue coming in to the State as well as to the Federal Government; and we have taken on thus far all of the timber sales which we felt should be properly made from the technical standpoint. And that has involved reducing, to some extent, the number of men employed on purely fire protective work, in order to provide the scalers and other personnel needed to administer the increased timber business.

Our present force of guards for protection work is somewhat less in 1924 than it was in 1923 on that account, and in my judgment, we have gone as far in that direction as it is safe to go; it would not be possible to reduce the fire protective organization any further, in order to take care of new business that may be offered.

Our present fire protective organization, on the areas of Class A fire hazard, is the equivalent of one patrolman for 80 square miles, or approximately 50,000 acres.

Mr. ANDERSON. Well, is that average quite a fair picture of the situation? I take it that the fire hazard on some of these forests is probably nil, while the fire hazard on some of the rest is probably very great?

Colonel GREELEY. That applies, Mr. Chairman, to the 86,000,000 acres where the fire hazard is relatively high; it excludes the areas having a very low fire hazard.

Mr. BUCHANAN. Did you say 86,000,000 or 36,000,000?

Colonel GREELEY. 86,000,000 acres have a record of a high fire hazard.

Mr. BUCHANAN. That is, Class A?

Colonel GREELEY. Yes; and approximately 71,000,000 acres have a low fire hazard.

CONSUMPTION OF MERCHANTABLE TIMBER.

Mr. ANDERSON. What proportion of the total area of the national forests represents merchantable timber?

Colonel GREELEY. Of the 157,000,00 acres in national forests, excluding all of the country above timber line, and the brush forests of southern California, the areas like the Tonto Basin, which are brush and grazing lands but important for watershed protectionin merchantable timber there are about 80,000,000 acres out of the total.

Mr. ANDERSON. What do you get for stumpage? Of course, there is a difference in price in different localities.

Colonel GREELEY. Yes, sir; the stumpage rates vary very much in different localities, by reason of the difference in quality and accessibility of the timber. The average stumpage rate obtained in 1923 was about $2.75 per thousand board feet. It has been gradually increasing from year to year.

Mr. BUCHANAN. When you were before this committee before, you told me approximately how much you could sell of the stumpage per year and still the forests never give out. Do you remember what figure that was?

Colonel GREELEY. Our estimate on that, Mr. Buchanan, is about 7,000,000,000 board feet a year.

Mr. BUCHANAN. And still have a continuous supply? Colonel GREELEY. That would be the equivalent of the annual growth.

Mr. BUCHANAN. And you say 7,000,000,000 board feet?

Colonel GREELEY. 7,000,000,000 board feet a year-which is about seven times what we are selling now.

Mr. ANDERSON. What is the annual consumption in board feet? Colonel GREELEY. In the United States? It is the equivalent of 53,000,000,000, board feet.

Mr. ANDERSON. I had 60,000,000,000 board feet in mind.
Colonel GREELEY. Yes, sir; that is about it.

Our cut of timber during the past year increased 263,000,000 board feet. There is a prospective increase in 1925 of 360,000,000 board feet more; but we will not be able to take up all of that increase with our present financial resources. We are slightly reducing the cost of handling the timber sales. In 1922, we made a quite accurate survey on all costs, which showed that the total cost of handling our timber sales, including all overhead expenses prorated, amounted to about 68 cents per thousand board feet. I am satisfied that we can reduce that to at least 50 cents per thousand board feet, including the prorated part of all overhead expenses.

But with every increase in timber-cutting a personnel must be provided to mark the areas that are to be cut-and usually to mark the individual trees that are to be cut-in order to remove the mature timber and save the young timber; to supervise the cutting operations, to get good conditions for regrowth; to supervise the disposal of the slashings in connection with the question of safety from fire; and to scale the material that is taken off of the Government lands. All of our timber sales are made with payment on the actual measurement of the material in the log, or in the cord after it is cut. And that, of course, requires personnel. There are some of the national forests where we can increase our scale of timbercutting with the present personnel; where the present force of rangers can assume additional work of that character. In most of the national forests, however, it will not be possible to assume additional timber selling contracts; and for that reason we will be unable to take advantage of all the business that will be offered us next year.

Mr. LEE. Who destroys the slash-the Government or the contractor?

Colonel GREELEY. The operator. The contract requires the operator to dispose of the slash-usually by piling it and burning it; in some cases, in hardwood cuttings, the slash is placed so that it will lie flat on the ground and scattered and left without burning. In some areas in the Northwest, where it is necessary to cut the old growth clean, or practically clean, we have found it sufficient to burn the slash within the protected areas-to burn it broadcast over 200 or 300 acres; we find we get a good new stand of timber in that way in that region. But whatever work is done, the cost is paid by the operator. The Forest Service men have to see that it is done, however, and that it is done properly, in accordance with the terms of the contract.

GRAZING PERMITS.

The grazing business on the National Forests represents approximately 9,000,000 head of livestock, grazed by 36,000 permittees. The depression in the livestock business has resulted in some reduction in the number of stock grazed; but in a number of cases those are reductions that we have been glad to have made, because they give us opportunities to distribute the remaining stock to better advantage and relieve some of our ranges that have been too heavily grazed.

Mr. ANDERSON. What are the grazing fees now?

Colonel GREELEY. The present grazing fees are equivalent to 113 cents per month for cattle and 3 cent per month for sheep. The main problem in the grazing work is to determine and enforce proper carrying capacities on our ranges. The deterioration of the unreserved public grazing lands in the West has gone to a very serious point in many localities, and that has greatly accentuated the demand for range within the national forests. That makes it incumbent upon us both to serve the industry and at the same time to protect our forest resources, to determine what our ranges can carry as accurately as possible, to get proper distribution of the stock, and get the best possible management of the stock on the range, so as to leave the range in good condition. We can take on a tremendous increase in the number of livestock if we had any place to put them. But we, of course, restrict any increases of that character to cases where the range will carry more stock without injury.

Mr. ANDERSON. Is there any complaint about those charges?
Colonel GREELEY. Not about the present charges.

RECREATION IN THE NATIONAL FORESTS.

Another matter which I would like to mention, because it necessarily claims a good deal of attention in the work of the Forest Service, is the increasing use of the national forests for recreation. We have between 5,000,000 and 7,000,000 recreation users who visit. the national forests for camping and other recreational purposes every year. These people tend to concentrate at favored camping places; and unless we are prepared for this use of the national forests, we are threatened not only with a fire hazard but with bad sanitary conditions and crowded camping grounds.

The construction of roads and the multiplication of automobiles is bringing the general public into the national forests on a scale which would have been undreamed of a few years ago.

I think that this is a desirable and wholesome use of the national forests; it is a good thing to make them available to the masses of the people. But it is something that is beginning to require a good deal of effort and attention on the part of the Forest Service. Recreation has become a major use of the national forests, and we have got to recognize it as such and make provision for it as such. That is something that is commanding a good deal more of our time than it used to, and makes necessarily larger demands upon our funds than formerly.

ESTIMATES FOR 1925.

Now, the budget which is before you is worthy of a brief explanatory statement by way of summary.

Of the items which constitute the regular work of the Forest Service, that is the protection and administration of the national forests, statutory roll, fighting and preventing of forest fires, etc., improvements in the national forests, and the regular research work of the Forest Service, the items for 1925, compared with the same items for 1924, and including the increases resulting from the classification of personnel in Washington, show a decrease in the appropriation for regular activities of $116,349-that is, these items for 1924 in the current supply bill, plus the $74,636 required to put into effect the classification of personnel in Washington, are more than the estimates submitted by the Bureau of the Budget for 1925 by a little over $116,000.

The miscellaneous items, namely, for the purchase of lands under the Weeks law, and for cooperation with the States in forect-fire protection, has been increased by $550,000, all of which applies to the purchase of lands, the Bureau of the Budget item for that purpose standing at $1,000,000.

The item for forest roads and trails has been increased in the estimates over 1924 by $2,000,000. The total of all of the items is an increase of $2,433,651; that increase coming entirely in forest roads and the purchase of lands; whereas the items for regular administration and research work are decreased by $116,349.

Mr. LEE. How many States cooperate with you in the fire-hazard protection work?

Colonel GREELEY. During the past year there were 26 States. Now, two more have qualified, and both will receive cooperation by the beginning of the next fiscal year, presumably. One of them, I am very glad to say, is Alabama-getting right into the pine belt of the South.

SALARIES.

I am ready to take up the statutory roll, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. ANDERSON. All right.

Colonel GREELEY. Page 137. There is no change in personnel from the statutory roll for 1924; the same number of people is provided for exactly. In lieu of the statutory roll for 1924, which totaled $2,471,000, a lump fund is proposed of $2,500,883, an increase of $29,883.

Now, the increase in expense due to the classification of the people carried on this statutory roll who are employed in the Washington office of the Forest Service will be $55,716. Out of that $36,384 simply takes up the existing bonus for employees receiving $2,500 or less.

The increase from the new reclassification in Washington over and above the bonus is $19,332. In other words, the normal increase in our statutory roll from putting the classification into effect has been cut by $25,833. That makes the new lump fund less than the old statutory roll, plus the bonus, by something over $6,000. This cut of $25,833 can probably be absorbed, owing to the greater flexibility of a lump sum over a statutory roll.