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Any other questions?
Senator ANDERSON. Could we have Mr. Davis confirm something that I thought I heard him say? Did you not indicate that the volume of sales from domestic glassware were up 20 or 25 percent?
Mr. Davis. Not the sale of domestic glassware. The percentage of imports to United States consumption of glassware was up 25 percent in 1956.
In other words, imports had taken 25 percent of the total market. Senator ANDERSON. How do you know that statistically?
Mr. Davis. We have figures. I am going to give Senator Kerr the figures on the whole thing.
Senator KERR. If that is the case, I can give you the figures now. Mr. Davis. Well, that tells the story.
Senator KERR. If imports are 25 percent and if domestic production is a 1,804,000 dozen, 25 percent of the sum total of the 2 is 600,000 dozen.
Have you got a mathematician with you? Isn't that right? Mr. DAVIS. The 25 percent is on the basis of comparing import dollar values to United States consumption. Wages have gone up each year and are reflected in dollar sales. Where dollar sales are shown as going up from year to year, dozens of pieces are going down because of imports.
Senator KERR. Do you see what I mean?
Senator BENNETT. Mr. Chairman, while we are worrying about figures and trying to get a clear picture of this industry, I would like to raise a couple of other questions.
Senator KERR. All right.
Senator BENNETT. I think we would like to know, if you know, whether the total consumption of glassware
Senator KERR. Of these products he is talking about?
Senator BENNETT. Goblets, tumblers, and other stemware is up and to what extent this total consumption includes (a), plastics that are now sold in the market in competition with these products, and I would like to be straightened out-you are referring here to handmade blown glassware; is there such a thing as machine-made glassware? Mr. Davis. Yes, there is. Senator KERR. Blown?
Senator BENNETT. So the market may be moving from handmade to machine made without being so greatly affected by imports.
I think we need a picture of the trends in the whole consumption of products of this type. Mr. Davis. We expect to have those figures.
That was the point that was brought up at the time of the Tariff Commission hearing gack in 1952, and we are collecting figures at the present time from the machine-made people and we have them from the handmade people. We feel the figures are going to show, we do not have them as yet, but we have a feeling that they are going to show that the two markets are well defined at this time.
I think what you imply was true to some extent a number of years ago, when the Tariff Commission investigated the handmade industry, but today those markets have become defined, and those people who
ask for machine ware ask for them because they are in a certain category of purchasing power.
On the other hand, those who request handmade glassware are at an entirely different level of buying power, an entirely different level of buyers, consequently the two markets have become pretty well defined at this time. It is my opinion that the machine-made glassware is no longer making inroads into the handmade glassware industry.
On the other hand, I think that imports very definitely are and are doing so to the great detriment of the handmade industry.
The increase in the percentage of imports of the handmade glassware that you are talking about, Senator, correlate well with the decreases in domestic production for this market. For example, the present increase of imports to United States consumption in 1956, the latest available figure at this point, is 25 percent. The percent decline in 1957 in dozens is 25.4 percent.
Senator BENNETT. That is what we want. Senator KERR. That is the information I want. Mr. Davis. There is a very definite correlation between the two figures.
Senator BENNETT. The reason I bring it up, I am not conscious if I walked into a store. I would say I want a handmade glass rather than that I would want a machine-made glass. Maybe there are differences in quality that are obvious to our wives.
Senator KERR. Would the Senator yield ?
If you or your wife is to walk in, it is not going to be you unless your family is different from mine. [Laughter.]
Senator BENNETT. Is this a machine-made glass?
Senator BENNETT. The reason I bring this up, Mr. Chairman, I am in the flat-glass business or was before I came to the Senate and there was a time when all the flat glass in the United States was handmade and over a period of years that transferred to a point where it is now all machine made, and I am just wondering whether this same process is to any extent going on in this particular aspect of the industry so that there may be other forces than importation working.
Senator KERR. Well, Mr. Davis has made two statements which I believe 'are conflicting, but I am interested in both of them and I would like to have him or this witness or somebody else advise us definitely.
I understood you to say that the overall consumption in this country of this handmade glassware is greater now than it was 7 years ago.
Mr. Davis. No, sir, I am afraid you misunderstood my statement, Senator.
I think if you talk about consumption, I am not quite sure again,
Senator KERR. I am talking about how much of it is bought day by day in the market.
Mr. Davis. Well, those are the figures I would want to give you when you say United States consumption. I always think of consumption figures, including imports, and I am not quite sure that you are including imports.
Senator KERR. Yes, I am. How could it be the overall purchases without including imports?
Senator KERR. Another time you said that in your opinion imports had approximately replaced the decrease that has occurred in domestic production.
Mr. Davis. That is right, yes.
Senator KERR. If imports have just about replaced the decrease in domestic production, I would conclude that the overall amount sold in the market would have to be about the same, because the sum total of domestic production and imports represents the total amount marketed whether it is 1950 or 1956, does it not?
Mr. Davis. Yes; roughly that is probably correct, Senator. It is a matter of shift in the volume that is going to imports from the domestic industry.
Senator KERR. Then we are dealing with an industry that apparently has a reasonably steady outlet in spite of the fact that we have got 15 or 16 million more people now than we had then.
It would occur to me that maybe the overall amount marketed would have been increased, and if the overall amount had been increased and if domestic production is down 25 percent, then it would seem to me that the imports not only had replaced that much of the domestic productions market but also absorbed the increase, and what I would like to know is which of those situations is the one that exists?
Mr. Davis. The market itself, that is, domestic shipments plus imports in dollars, has gone up but imports year after year are getting an increasing percentage of the total available volume.
Senator KERR. Your production has gone down?
Mr. Davis. That it has, gone down for domestic shipments in dozens sold, as indicated in exhibit A.
Senator ANDERSON. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Mr. Davis. Incidentally, Senator, may I say this, when Mr. Weeks told you that the domestic shipments had gone up, I am afraid he did not have the most recent figures from the Census. The Census has corrected their figures for the past 3 years showing that in dozens the domestic market has gone down.
Senator KERR. Yes.
Senator ANDERSON. You have got me badly confused now. You say that the increase in imports has just about replaced the decrease in domestic production.
Mr. Davis. Percentagewise domestic production is down 25 percent in dozens in 1957 from 1950. Imports are up to 25 percent of total dollar consumption in 1956 on a dollar volume basis. This is an interpretation that provides the only, and we feel valid, conclusion in view of our not having imports in dozens for direct comparison to domestic shipments in dozens.
Senator ANDERSON. Now will you tell me what it is in numbers, or don't you know?
Mr. Davis. As I say, I will have to estimate to give you those figures in dozens.
Senator ANDERSOX. You said the market has stabilized. I wrote it down anyhow: I thought you said the market in handmade blown glass had stabilized and had not gone up.
Is that about right?
Mr. Davis. That is my feeling at the present time.
I am going to have to check these figures out when I get back. I do not want to be on record as making a positive statement in this respect until I can support it fully. Estimates of imports in dozens will have to be made for addition to domestic shipments.
Senator ANDERSON. That is what I wanted to question you about.
If you do not know the numbers of foreign importation, you cannot possibly testify whether the market is up or down, can you.
I spend my time in a business and live on statistics when I get a chance.
Senator KERR. Accurate information.
Senator ANDERSON. If you do not know what the facts are in the way of figures, how can you testify what the trends are?
You do not know what the foreign importation by numbers is; do you?
Mr. Davis. Not by numbers. They are available.
Senator ANDERSON. No. And therefore even though you do know what the domestic numbers are, if you don't know what the foreign importations by numbers are, you do not know whether the market has stabilized or not; do you?
Mr. Davis. We have not, by numbers—well, yes, I would say
Senator ANDERSON. How do you know if you don't know by numbers?
Mr. Davis. Well, by numbers, if you are going to talk about dozens
Senator ANDERSON. That is what I want to talk about because that is what he talked about here, dozens.
He went from 2,419,000 dozen to 2 million dozen; that is in dozens, isn't it?
Mr. Davis. Yes.
Senator ANDERSON. I asked that question a while ago, because you do not have the numbers on imports. If you do not have the numbers, how can you testify whether imports are going up or down, merely by dollars?
You might have a shift in grades. You might have any number of shifts that take place; you might have a shift in the toal dollar value.
Money has become a little easier in the way of not buying quite so much these last few years, and it might take more dollars to buy the same amount of imported goods.
Unless you do have numbers how can you testify what the market is doing? Mr. Davis. We can find out
Senator ANDERSON. If they are trading on the New York Stock Exchange and they do not know how many shares are traded, but figure it in dollars, you could be way off by trading in high-priced stocks one day or cheap prices the next day. They have to list how many shares in order to find out the trend of the market.
How can you do it otherwise? Dollars do not mean anything to you; it is dozens?
Mr. Davis. That is quite so, except, Senator, we are dealing with this proposition here on the overall figures for all blown handmade glassware regardless of differences of dollar value of types that are blown.
Senator ANDERSON. Do you have the overall figures for all handmade glassware regardless of that!
Do you have the overall figures on consumption of handmade glassware? Mr. Davis. Yes; we have the overall. Senator ANDERSON. You have the overall ? All you have to do is subtract the domestic.
I don't believe you do have the overall from what you testified but if you do have the overall
Mr. Davis. On handmade only now, Senator.
Senator ANDERSON. I know it, that is all I am interested in for the moment.
Do you have a total consumption in numbers of handmade blown glassware?
Mr. Davis. No; because numbers of imported ware are not available.
Senator ANDERSON. All right.
Senator ANDERSON. What you just got through saying you have, total numbers consumed of handmade blown glassware in the United States.
Mr. Davis. We only have the shipments here of the domestic industry by years and imports in dollars.
Senator ANDERSON. Well, isn't that just what I got through saying; you said you did have the total consumption.
Now isn't it a fact that you do not have the total consumption? Can we get that established, by number?
Mr. Davis. We do not have it by numbers because weSenator ANDERSON. That is right. Mr. Davis (continuing). Because we do not have the dozens on imports.
Senator ANDERSON. Now if you do not have it by numbers, how do you know whether the market is going up or down?
Mr. Davis. Well, we can only tell whether it is going up or down with the figures that we have available to work with, and those are the total dollars of shipments plus the total dollars of imports. We do have dollars of imports and we can only make our comparison on that basis and make an interpretation of what the dozens of imports might be based on dollar value of imports.
Senator ANDERSON. Well, I think it would be
Senator ANDERSON. I do, too. I think it would be very difficult to go back and trace each individual invoice. That is what I was trying to get you to say. In the absence of figures, you have to look at these dollars and conclude from them that the imports are staying at a certain level or increasing, and, as I understand it, your testimony to Senator Kerr was that, looking at those, you decided that the imports