The CHAIRMAN. Then are you advocating an interim institution of some kind between the people in kindergarten and the public schools, to indoctrinate them with whatever you are preaching here now, before they go to school!

Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand how you could maintain that.

Let's take some of these and see what you are talking about. I think you have been associated with the Rangers as an adviser for quite a long time, haven't you?

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How long?
Reverend FRY. Two years.

The CHAIRMAN. During that time, did you get acquainted with them?

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Quite well?
Reverend Fry. In some instances.
The CHAIRMAN. With reference to their officers.

Reverend Fry. I would say I am close personal friends with the two principal leaders, and I have close personal friendship with Mr. Bernard Green. I think aside from that I have only a casual knowledge of them, of their activities, of their personal lives.

The CHAIRMAN. You testified as an expert, that they are not a gang, that they are a community organization doing a lot of good.

You have been advising them now for 2 years. Is that true? They meet in your church, don't they?

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How often do they meet there?
Reverend Fry. With irregular incidence, but generally once a week.

The CHAIRMAN. They do have their headquarters there, don't they? They have a room there where they keep their records, where they keep their other material?

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. So they headquarter in your church?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And you see them quite often?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is meant by the 21, the Main 21? Do you know what that means?

Reverend Fry. As I understand it, the Main 21 is the official policymaking group.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the policymaking group?
Reverend Fry. Of the Blacktone Rangers.
The CHAIRMAN. How many of them do you know personally?

Reverend Fry. I know three with real personal friendship. The rest I know casually.

The CHAIRMAN. How many are you acquainted with personally?
Reverend Fry. I know them by name. They know me. All of them.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know all of them?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Do they all meet in your church?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you see them there?

Reverend Fry. I have seen them there: yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you counsel with them? Don't you sit in on their meetings and counsel with them!

Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What do you do with respect to them?
Reverend Fry. I basically have provided legal support for them
when they have been in the courts and needed it.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't they come to you for counsel ?
Reverend Fry, For legal counsel, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you an attorney?
Reverend Fry. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They come to you for legal counsel, not spiritual counsel?

Reverend Fry. They come to me asking for legal support.

The CHAIRMAN. To get money to get them out of jail. That is what they come to you for, isn't it?

Reverend FRY. At times.
The CHAIRMAN. To hire a lawyer?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. To make bond for them?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. To get them out of jail?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You are their father confidant in that sense?
Reverend Fry. In that sense.

The CHAIRMAX. In that sense you are. So you know them pretty well, don't you?

Reverend Fry. In that sense; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's look at this chart and see how many you know. You can tell which ones are your personal friends and which ones are not. Let's get the record straight.

Look up on the chart. It says "The Blackstone Rangers, Main 21."

Presumably, as I understand it, the testimony is that these, and you say-are the 21-more or less-leaders who are truly the policymakers of this fine youth organization.

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's start with them and see what they are.
Do you know the president, Eugene Hairston?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How long have you known Eugene?
Reverend Fry. Two years, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Two years!
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What does he do?
Reverend Fry. He is the president of the Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he do before he became president of the Rangers?

Reverend Fry. I do not know.
The CHAIRMAN. You didn't know him before that?
Reverend Fry. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You only got acquainted with him after he came into the Rangers ?

Reverend FRY. When the Rangers came into association with the church.

The CHAIRMAN. When the Rangers came and made your church headquarters!

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You got acquainted with him then?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How often have you conferred with him?
Reverend Fry. Several times a week.
The CHAIRMAN. Several times a week?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Again, you are his confidant with respect to counseling about the Rangers' program?

Reverend Fry. In legal matters, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. In legal matters?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In getting him attorneys and getting bonds for those who get in jail ?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what you have been doing?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what education he has?

Reverend Fry. I am led to understand that he finished first-year high school. That may be in error, sir, but that is to the best of my recollection. The CHAIRMAN. What experience has he had?

What had he been doing prior to the time he came into the Rangers? Do you not know?

Reverend FRY. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. You had no interest in that, and yet you thought him a competent administrator of this program?

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You think he is?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Where is he now?
Reverend Fry. He is in Chicago.
The CHAIRMAN. What is he doing?
Reverend Fry. I have no knowledge of that, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. When did you last see him !
Reverend Fry. Saturday afternoon.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you ask him what he was doing now?
Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Where was he before that?
Reverend Fry. I saw him quite frequently last week.
The CHAIRMAN. You saw him quite frequently last week?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been conferring with him about your testimony here?

Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What were you talking about?

Reverend Fry. We were talking about the general climate that was being created in Chicago as a result of these hearings.

The CHAIRMAN. The general climate being created in Chicago?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did that involve his conviction for conspiracy to murder? Did you talk to him about that?

Reverend Fry. It came up in the conversation; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make bond for him so he could get out of jail after he was convicted ?

Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Did he come to you for that?
Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Who did make the bond for him? Do you know?
Reverend Fry, The Blackstone organization.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you help them arrange it?
Reverend Fry. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Why did you fail them this time?
Reverend Fry. I had no money, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Blackstone Rangers were the ones who always provided the money. You never did provide the money yourself, did you?

Reverend Fry. In many instances, the teen education fund of the First Presbyterian Church did provide money for bail bond; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many times?
Reverend Fry. I have no ready recollection of how many times.
The CHAIRMAN. Give us some idea about it.

Reverend Fry. I would say we have provided bail probably 200 times.

The CHAIRMAN. Possibly 200 times in the last 2 years?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. For some of these 21 up here, Main 21 ?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir; and many others.
The CHAIRMAN. And many others in the gang?
Reverend Fry. In and out of the gang.
The CHAIRMAN. In and out of the gang?
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's to the next one
Senator CURTIS. May I ask one question?

How many of those were charged with felonies ? That is, out of the 200 ?

Reverend Fry. Mr. Curtis, to the best of my estimation, I would say 95 percent of these were bonding misdemeanors, disorderly conduct charges; resisting arrests, I think, were more prominent in these occasions.

Senator CURTIS. The teen-age fund in the church, that was a church fund !

Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. How much would you estimate was spent in total fund for these approximately 200 bonds ?

Reverend Fry. This was kind of a revolving fund, Mr. Curtis. But we have spent something over $5,000 in one way or another in providing bail bonds.

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out how old a youth Mr. Hairston is. How old is Mr. Hairston?

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Reverend Fry. To the best of my knowledge, he is 24, sir.
Senator MUNDT. Twenty-four!
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.

Senator Mundt. When you talk about a youth movement, do you include people who are 24 years old ?

Reverend Fry. In this particular organization, Senator Mundt, the leaders who began the original organization are still the leaders, and these leaders were very young when they began. But they are still leaders.

Senator MUNDT. He was only 22 if it is 2 years old, and he is 24 now. Maybe I misunderstood you someplace, but I thought this was a youth group: Reverend Fry. It is. It has been in existence for some 8

years now. Senator MUNDT. What?

Reverend Fry. It has been in existence for some 8 years. But our association is only 2 years old.

Senator MUNDT. And Mr. Hairston started, then, when he was 16.
Reverend Fry. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we leave Mr. Hairston, we have all of their criminal records here. I will ask you about them.

TESTIMONY OF LaVERN J. DUFFY-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Duffy, did you prepare this?
Mr. DUFFY. Yes, sir.
The CIIAIRMAN. You have been previously sworn.
I present you with a sizable document. Would you examine it and
tell me what it is?

Mr. DUFFY. Mr. Chairman, we have a recapitulation, a recap, of all the subprofessional staff members that were in the TWO program as of December 30, 1967.

The CHAIRMAN. That is of this Main 21 group? Mr. DUFFY. Including the Main 21 group. We took the individuals who were all the subprofessional staff members, which would include the Main 21, who were on the payroll of the TWO program as of December 30, 1967.

We conferred with the police department and obtained all the police records on these individuals for an 11-month period prior to the grant, which was in June 1967, and what happened 11 months subsequent to the grant as to these individuals.

We compiled that into a schedule, Mr. Chairman. I have that as an exhibit before me.

The CHAIRMAN, Let it be made exhibit No. 190.
I will let it be printed in the record as well as being made an exhibit.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 190" for reference and follows:)