things, it would be pretty hard for them to get by with it without your knowing it.

Reverend FRY. That is true, sir.

Mr. BRACKETT. Senator, I think the record should be clear. Your references, Mr. Chairman, to the storage of guns, I take it, refer to the fact that guns were kept in the safe under inventory by the Treasury Department and the Police Department for safekeeping, sir. The CHAIRMAN. It refers to a whole lot more than that, if you know what the testimony is.

Mr. BRACKETT. I assume, then, that Reverend Fry will be able to answer your questions on that subject.

The CHAIRMAN. We will get to it, but it will take a little while, there is much of it.

I think we ought to move to your next highest man.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask one question about Hairston?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. Was your counseling to Hairston limited to what you called legal counseling?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. You never talked to him about anything else? Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. No religious counseling at all?

Reverend FRY. To the extent that our religion prompts us to hope for full justice for every man, it was deeply religious counseling, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever have him come to church?

Reverend FRY. He has been to church, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Didn't you give him religious counseling? You are a minister of the gospel. It seems as if you would be interested in that. Reverend FRY. I am, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you seek the opportunity to have a prayer meeting with this group?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't?

Reverend FRY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. When you had them in session, did you ever have them bow their heads and pray for them?

Reverend FRY. I have not, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not.

What did you do in these meetings? You didn't have any prayer meetings, you didn't pray for them, you didn't have religious services, didn't counsel them about their way of life, and so forth. What did you do?

Reverend FRY. I discussed their legal situation.

The CHAIRMAN. Discussed their legal situation?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many different times did you discuss their legal situation?

Reverend FRY. Virtually an endless number of times, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. An endless number of times?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mundt.

Senator MUNDT. Can you tell us how these Main 21, insofar as they are Federal employees-which I presume they are, as it says

their salary comes from the Federal employer-how do they get their jobs? You must know something about it. Would you give us a little background on that? How did Mr. Hairston, for example, who worked his way up, you said, from the time he was 16 years old until he was 24 so that he is now the president--how did he get his position?

Reverend FRY. He was one of the original leaders of the organization. He always had that position. He didn't work up from something else.

Senator MUNDT. At age 16 he had that position?

Reverend FRY. When the organization began about 8 years ago, it was a very small organization and he was the leader then, and he is the leader now, as the organization has grown.

Senator MUNDT. How do they get to be a leader? We have heard it described that you got to be a leader kind of by the law of the jungle-if you were tough enough and good with your fists. But, did they have an election? Did they have somebody choose them? Or did they just muscle their way in?

Reverend FRY. In this particular organization, the two principal leaders, Mr. Hairston and Mr. Fort, have been the principal leaders since the organization began, as a very small street gang 8 years ago. Senator MUNDT. And you would agree that they didn't get their job by being elected. They were kind of organizers?

Reverend FRY. They were the two young men who began the organization.

Senator MUNDT. And stayed with it?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. How did they get their Federal appointment? How did they get that?

Reverend FRY. This determination was made by the advisory boards responsible for the administration of this project, and the final determination and eventual employment was made by that advisory board. Senator MUNDT. Are you a member of the advisory board? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Did you also participate in the selection of all the others up there who were employed? Some of them, I don't think are employed. I don't see salaries connected with some of them. But all the others on that chart who are Federal employees, did you and your advisory board select them, or did the two you originally chose select them from that point on?

Reverend FRY. My participation in this was very peripheral. I simply do not know the answers to these particular questions.

Senator MUNDT. Did you participate in the selection or Federal employment of anybody else besides Mr. Hairston and Mr. Fort?

Reverend FRY. Inasmuch as the advisory board was responsible for the employment of all, I was involved. But my personal participation on the advisory board at that point was peripheral. I could not, for other reasons, attend the meetings.

Senator MUNDT. The advisory board, of which you were a member, did participate in the selection of all of these people who are Federal employees, is that right?

Reverend FRY. That is true, sir.

Senator CURTIS. I have one very brief question.

I would like to see the communication from the church that was rejected as evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We have it.

Senator CURTIS. I though it was rejected.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not going to put it into the record.

Senator CURTIS. I would like to see it.

The CHAIRMAN. I would not let them read it into the record. They can give it to the press or anyone they want to.

Senator MUNDT. The lawyer has it.

Mr. BRACKETT. What I have is a copy of a telegram sent to Reverend Fry, which states

The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. I am not going to let you read it into the record.

Senator CURTIS. I want to see it. I will return it after the recess. The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask one or two questions.

Reverend, do you know any source of income that this man Hairston has other than his working on this project?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What other source?

Reverend FRY. He has been given a salary in occupying a staff position

The CHAIRMAN. On what?

Reverend FRY (continuing). Occupying a staff position in a program funded by our church.

The CHAIRMAN. How much salary?

Reverend FRY. I cannot recall the exact amount.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you give him any money for his trial?

Reverend FRY. Not personally.

The CHAIRMAN. This last trial.

Reverend FRY. No, sir. But I arranged for it, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You did what?

Reverend FRY. I arranged for the money.

The CHAIRMAN. From whom? Was it to be given to him, or to pay

his lawyers?

Reverend FRY. To pay his lawyer.

The CHAIRMAN. It wasn't given to him directly?

Reverend FRY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't raise any money to give to him during the last trial?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the only source of income you know, what the church paid him and what he got from this project?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is the only source as far as you know, and you are pretty close to it?

Reverend FRY. That is to the best of my knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Officer, did you make the arrest or did you have him in your custody, Hairston in your custody, after his conviction?

Just a moment. I thought I was to address you with that question. This gets to be intriguing. You have already been sworn?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HOUTSMA-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. You have already been sworn and testified.

Did you have occasion to have Hairston in your custody immediately after he was convicted of this charge of conspiring to have murder committed?

Mr. HOUTSMA. He visited me the day after he was released on bond. The CHAIRMAN. He what?

Mr. HOUTSMA. He visited me in my office the day after he was released on bond.

The CHAIRMAN. The day after he was released on bond?

Mr. HOUTSMA. That is right, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the circumstance?

Mr. HOUTSMA. He came to my office in the Cook County Jail and he wanted to see what the amount of bond was on three members of the Blackstone Rangers Main 21 who were in the jail.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he have with him at that time?

Mr. HOUTSMA. He had $9,200 cash.

The CHAIRMAN. $9,200 cash?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That was how long after he was convicted?

Mr. HOUTSMA. It was about 3 weeks after his conviction but only 24 hours after his release.

The CHAIRMAN. 24 hours after his release.

Did he get that money from you?

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY-Resumed

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know anything about it?

Reverend FRY. Not a thing.

The CHAIRMAN. He didn't get it from the church?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't think he got it from the Government, but I am not sure.

Senator MUNDT. Could he have gotten it from the teenage group you mentioned, without your knowledge?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You would have known about it if he had gotten it from them?

Reverend FRY. If he had gotten it from the teenage funds of the church I surely would have known about it.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand in recess until 2:15 this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene at 2:15 p.m. the same day.)

(Committee members present at the time of recess: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

(At reconvening of the subcommittee the following members were present: Senators McClellan and Curtis.)

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, WILLIAM W. BRACKETT-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. It may be that during the course of our session this afternoon we will be interrupted by a rollcall vote and will have to recess to go to the floor for a vote. It may not come, however, until we are ready to recess for the day. I hope we can move right along. Senator, do you have any questions to follow along what you had earlier?

Senator CURTIS. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me go back to Hairston for just a moment on one or two things.

In the course of this last trial of Hairston for conspiracy to murder, you attended the trial, manifesting a great deal of interest in it. You say you think he didn't get justice, as I understand you, that the man didn't get justice at the trial. I understood you to say that the church had in about 200 instances furnished bond, or provided bond, for the members of this gang during the last 2 years. Is that correct?

The CHAIRMAN. How many times have you paid attorney fees for them?

Reverend FRY. I am not prepared to say in detail, but I should imagine that a guess would be over 50.

The CHAIRMAN. In over 50 of those cases you provided attorney fees?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is out of the 200.

Where do these moneys come from when you provide attorney fees, and bail fees, for these gang members who are arrested?

Reverend FRY. They come from three sources, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. From three sources?

Reverend FRY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Name them.

Reverend FRY. The first source is a variety of interested people throughout the United States who make individual contributions. The CHAIRMAN. A variety?

Reverend FRY. Of individual contributors throughout the country. The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean you have individuals contributing to a fund, a bond fund, for the Blackstone Rangers and for legal funds for the Blackstone Rangers?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This good community organization?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. That is No. 1.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, from a variety of individuals.

Reverend FRY. That is No. 1.

The CHAIRMAN. That is one.

Reverend FRY. No. 2, and the most substantial contributor is Mr. Charles K. Kettering, Jr.

The CHAIRMAN. Mister whom?

Reverend FRY. Charles K. Kettering, Jr.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you spell his last name?

Reverend FRY. K-e-t-t-e-r-i-n-g.