The CHAIRMAN. Where is he from? Reverend FRY. He lives in Denver, Mr. Chairman, and he is associated with the Kettering Foundation. The CHAIRMAN. What foundation? Reverend FRY. The Kettering Foundation, which is located in Dayton, Ohio. And the third source of funds has come from the presbytery of Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. The third is from the presbytery? Reverend FRY. The presbytery of Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Those are church funds? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Do those funds come out of the collection plate collections, or are they a special fund contributed by the church for this purpose? Reverend FRY. These moneys come from the presbytery to our teen education fund for the purposes that are outlined in our general Ranger program. The CHAIRMAN. How much is your presbytery contributing to this fund? The principal one is this foundation? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What is this church fund? I don't quite understand how the church fund can work for the purpose of providing defense and making bonds for those charged with crime. That is a new function of the church from my viewpoint. I may have gotten behind the times. Reverend FRY. But it is an especially important one, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Maybe it is, to keep them out on bond. Reverend FRY. No, to provide them with the opportunity to present themselves as full American citizens before a court of law and to get a just trial. The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever contribute anything to prosecuting criminals who violate the law and endanger society? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You are just on the other side, just against the law and law enforcement? Reverend FRY. No, sir. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What have you contributed to the other side, to get these crooks prosecuted? Anything? Mr. BRACKETT. Mr. Chairman, I am sure you are not suggesting that bond is an un-American practice; is not in the course of law and order. The CHAIRMAN. You can make a speech some other place. Answer the question. What have you contributed to the prosecution of law violators? What in money, in funds, anything, has your church, you, or this good community organization, contributed to the enforcement of the law, financially? Reverend FRY. Not financially. The CHAIRMAN. You haven't contributed anything? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. How much have you contributed from these sources where you get your money-how much have you contributed to the other side of it, to defending them, to get them lawyers, to get them bail? Give us an estimate in the past 2 years, since you took over this 85-779-68-pt. 10- 4 gang, mothering it in the church, tell use how much you have contributed for that purpose. Reverend FRY. Something like $25,000. The CHAIRMAN. $25,000? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you handle the making of bail or bonds for Hairston on this last charge? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you handle any money or have anything to do with any attorney fees that were raised for him and paid? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir; I had a great deal to do with that. The CHAIRMAN. How much was raised by you to pay his attorney fees? Reverend FRY. Mr. Chairman, the amount of the fees I have no way to know. The CHAIRMAN. You know what you raised. I am not talking about what the lawer charged. What did you pay? What did you give him? Reverend FRY. We paid nothing out of our fund. We arranged for Mr. Kettering to pay the attorneys directly, so I don't even know how much was charged. The CHAIRMAN. How much did Mr. Kettering pay out of this foundation fund? Reverend FRY. No. Out of his own pocket, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. Kettering do? Reverend FRY. He is a philanthropist, sir; a man of great social vision. The CHAIRMAN. A what? Reverend FRY. A man of great social vision. The CHAIRMAN. Social vision? To help everybody charged with crime, to get them out on bond, to get them lawyers? Reverend FRY. No, not everybody. The CHAIRMAN. Only those that are in a good community organization? Reverend FRY. Only those who are in need of fair trials. The CHAIRMAN. Isn't everybody in need of a fair trial? Reverend FRY. Everybody is in need, but some are in more need. The CHAIRMAN. Some are in more need? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I think that is true from your point of view. Senator CURTIS. Did Mr. Kettering make his transmission of funds direct to the lawyer? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. Then it would not be a tax deduction? Reverend FRY. I really have no idea about that. I am not expert in that field. Senator CURTIS. Have there been any funds contributed to your church or to this organization earmarked for attorney fees for defense purposes, and then later transmitted to lawyers? Reverend FRY. I did not-transmitted to whom? Senator CURTIS. To the lawyers for whom it was intended. Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. We have, out of our fund, made checks to lawyers. Senator CURTIS. Have you received specific, earmarked contributions for defense lawyers or bail bond money that has been transmitted through the church? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. That is all, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. There is another source of money, I believe, that you failed to mention, isn't there, that goes into a fund? Reverend FRY. Not that I know of. The CHAIRMAN. Didn't the Rangers have a fund for that purpose? Reverend FRY. These are entirely separate funds, and their own fund and I know nothing about their financial affairs. They do not ask me and I do not inquire. I know nothing about their financial affairs. The CHAIRMAN. I thought you were their father counselor, as you testified this morning. Reverend FRY. I testified, I believe, that I have provided a good deal of legal support, legal advice. The CHAIRMAN. Legal advice would be how to collect dues, wouldn't it, among other things? Reverend FRY. No, sir; it would not. The CHAIRMAN. It would be how to expend their money, among other things, wouldn't it? Reverend FRY. No, sir. I do believe in the integrity of their leadership. The CHAIRMAN. You what? Reverend FRY. I believe in the integrity of their leadership. The CHAIRMAN. You believe in the integrity of these 21 up here? The CHAIRMAN. That is a pretty good start. Didn't they collect dues for this organization? Do you know about that? Reverend FRY. I would defer to our program director, Mr. Charles LaPaglia, because I could not know. The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about you. You gave them headquarters. You are on the council. I am asking you under oath, don't you know they did collect dues from their members? Don't you know that? Reverend FRY. I do not know that for a fact; no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You want to state now under oath that you didn't know they collected dues? Reverend FRY. I do not know for a fact that they do or do not collect dues. The CHAIRMAN. In your 2 years of association with them, in your very close capacity, you do not know, and you are stating under oath now, you do not know that this gang, these Main 21 who make the policy and operate this thing, that they collect dues from their members? Mr. BRACKETT. Senator, are you asking The CHAIRMAN. I am talking to the witness. Mr. BRACKETT. I would like to clarify the question, if I may. Mr. BRACKETT. Are you asking whether Reverend Fry knows of direct personal knowledge, or whether he has heard of it? The CHAIRMAN. Listen, Lawyer, this man is pretty intelligent. Go ahead and answer the question. I am asking you if you know it. Then I will ask you if you have heard of it, and don't you from hearsay, from your associations with them, don't you know it? Reverend FRY. I do not know personally. I have heard that they do. The CHAIRMAN. Whom did you hear it from? Reverend FRY. From Mr. LaPaglia, who is the director of the teen education project of the First Presbyterian Church. The CHAIRMAN. You never had occasion to know it of your own knowledge? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you know that they collect dues from these little boys that you were talking about, that they teach, to get them into their organization? Reverend FRY. I have heard that from Mr. LaPaglia. The CHAIRMAN. Whom else have you heard it from? You heard it from some of the mothers, too, didn't you? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Didn't some of the mothers come to you complaining about it? Reverend FRY. Not that I recall, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And you told them not to go to the law about it? The CHAIRMAN. Don't you know that occurred? The CHAIRMAN. If it occurred, you would recall it, within the last 2 years, wouldn't you? Reverend FRY. I certainly would. The CHAIRMAN. You state under oath it did not occur? Reverend FRY. I do not recall. The CHAIRMAN. Will you state under oath that it did not occuryou have a pretty good memory-that within the last 2 years the mothers of some of these youngsters came to you and pleaded with you about this matter? Reverend FRY. I answer I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. You do not know? Reverend FRY. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. You do not know whether they did it or not? Reverend FRY. They did not come. The CHAIRMAN. What? Reverend FRY. I am answering "No," to your question. The CHAIRMAN. You are answering "No?" Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Don't you know that out of these dues this group themselves, these leaders, set up a fund for their own defense, and for the securing of bonds for them? Reverend FRY. I have heard that that is true; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who did you hear that from? The CHAIRMAN. All of your information comes from him? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you also hear that they were engaged in the selling of marihuana to get money for that purpose? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You never heard that? Reverend FRY. Not from Mr. La Paglia. The CHAIRMAN. From whom? Reverend FRY. I heard it-I heard the allegation made in this room this morning. The CHAIRMAN. Before this, long before? Reverend FRY. I read it also in the papers. The CHAIRMAN. And long before that? Whom did you hear it from among this group? Reverend FRY. None. Categorically, none. The CHAIRMAN. Categorically none. Did you ever know of any of them ever being engaged in that? Reverend FRY. No, I did not. The CHAIRMAN. All right, we will get to that a little later. Let me ask you this: Is it not true, too, that they also engaged in shakedowns of merchants in that area in order to get money, and didn't you know about that? Reverend FRY. It is my knowledge The CHAIRMAN. Information? Reverend FRY. It is my knowledge to the contrary, that they have not. The CHAIRMAN. How do you know they didn't, if you don't know these other things? Reverend FRY. I have consulted the merchants themselves, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. You have? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Who? Name them. Reverend FRY. The Jackson Park Businessmen's Association. The CHAIRMAN. Who? Reverend FRY. The Jackson Park Businessmen's Association, and the Woodlawn Businessmen's Association, and these merchants, through their organizations, have assured me that they have not been shaken down by the Blackstone Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. Whom were they shaken down by? Reverend FRY. They did not The CHAIRMAN. You don't know of any extortion among the merchants in that neighborhood? You are telling us you never heard of that? Reverend FRY. I have never heard any details. The CHAIRMAN. Why did you ask them about it if you had not heard about it? Reverend FRY. Because the Rangers were under attack that they were committing this extortion. The CHAIRMAN. When? Reverend FRY. Directly after the murder of Martin Luther King. The CHAIRMAN. Well, you had heard about it, then, had you not? |