Reverend FRY. I said that I heard about it. It was in the newspapers.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any other weapons other than the guns being stored in your church, other than the guns that you had in the safe?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a tunnel in that church?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a loft in that church?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you say to us now under oath, here, today, that no guns were stored in that tunnel?

Reverend FRY. To my knowledge, none were.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you say here under oath today that no guns were stored in the loft of that church?

Reverend FRY. To my knowledge, no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you say that they could have been stored there without your knowledge?

Reverend FRY. It would be very doubtful, but it is a theoretical possibility.

The CHAIRMAN. It would be very doubtful, wouldn't it?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There was talk at many times about the guns being stored there, was there not?

Reverend FRY. This has been

The CHAIRMAN. That was a continuous subject there, wasn't it? Reverend FRY. It was, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you had some raids there to get guns, too, didn't you?

Reverend FRY. Two that I know of.

The CHAIRMAN. Two that you know of. What about the time that you had an arrangement where you say they were to turn in their guns. When was that made?

Reverend FRY. That was in July of 1966.

(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)

The CHAIRMAN. In July 1966. What was the arrangement, and by whom was it made?

Reverend FRY. The arrangement was made between U.S. Treasury agents, representatives of the third district of Chicago police, a representative from Mayor Daley, and the Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. Name the representatives.

Reverend FRY. At this point I don't recall. It is a matter of public record.

The CHAIRMAN. Get their names and submit them for the record, please.

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir, I will be pleased to do that.

(The following information was submitted by William W. Brackett on behalf of Rev. John Fry :)

Those representatives were, I am informed, Mr. Peter A. Zelkovich, Treasury; Sgt. Garland Davis, Chicago Police; Mr. Thomas Russell, Mayor's office; Sgt. Wilson, 3d District Chicago Police.

The CHAIRMAN. How come your church was selected as a repository for them?

Reverend FRY. We were asked as a third party, by both the police officials and the Blackstone Rangers, if the church wall safe might be used.

The CHAIRMAN. I never heard of a thing like this before, a church being called upon to become a repository for gangster weapons. Did you?

Reverend FRY. They were being voluntarily surrendered in a disarmament program, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the purpose of disarmament?
Reverend FRY. To reduce violence in the area.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Reverend FRY. To reduce violence in the area.

The CHAIRMAN. Between whom?

Reverend FRY. Between the Blackstone Rangers and the Devil's Disciples.

The CHAIRMAN. There was violence between the two groups?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very serious violence?

Reverend FRY. Very grave violence; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very grave violence.

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And they were trying to find a way to stop it?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So they brought the guns to your church?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long did they remain there?

Reverend FRY. They remained from July until November 10. The CHAIRMAN. After July 4, they would have 30 days to turn them in; was it?

Reverend FRY. No. The disarmament was completed on July 4. The CHAIRMAN. The whole turn-in operation or process was completed on July 4?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you ever called on to surrender those guns? Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The police of Chicago didn't call on you to surrender those guns?

Reverend FRY. They were the guns of the police, not our guns. The CHAIRMAN. Did they call on you to let them have the guns? Reverend FRY. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And did you refuse?

Reverend FRY. No; not to my knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. And did you say at the time the reason you refused was because the Blackstone Rangers needed those guns to protect themselves?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that didn't occur?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Bring your witness around.

Isn't it true to get the guns, isn't it true in order to get the guns they had to get a search warrant and go in there and take them on the 4th of November?

Reverend FRY. They did get a search warrant. They might have gotten them any time.

The CHAIRMAN. If you were willing to turn them over, why would they have to get a search warrant?

Reverend FRY. They might have gotten them at any time. They belonged to the police, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me swear this witness.

You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. WILLIAM B. GRIFFIN

Senator CURTIS. First, where did the guns come from immediately before they were placed in the safe?

Reverend FRY. They came from the members of the Blackstone Rangers, who voluntarily surrendered them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know that they surrendered all of them? Reverend FRY. I have no knowledge of that, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. State your name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. William B. Griffin.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am the commander of the third district police, Chicago.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this the area of Chicago that we have been discussing here, that is in your district?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We have heard some testimony here about some guns stashed away in the safe or brought in and surrendered and put in the church safe out there. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. I know it was under my direction that a search warrant was procured and a raid conducted on the church, and approximately 58 weapons ranging from crossbows to shotguns and rifles were recovered from a vault on the second floor.

The CHAIRMAN. Fifty-eight weapons of what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ranging from crossbows to

The CHAIRMAN. Is that what you call a zip gun?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is a zip gun?

Mr. GRIFFIN. A zip gun is a gun that is made usually out of an automobile antenna, a block of wood, secured by rubber bands, and a nail is used as a firing pin. These were not zip guns.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you get any zip guns?

First, let's go back. Do you know when the guns were stored there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. They were stored the 3rd of July, 1966.
The CHAIRMAN. Under what arrangements?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under arrangements that had been worked out by members of the alcoholic tax unit. On the date that these guns were turned in, that was the first knowledge that I had that any such arrangements had been worked out.

The CHAIRMAN. It was after the guns had been turned in?
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the date that they were turned in.

The CHAIRMAN. On the date they were turned in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What efforts did you make to secure the guns before you got a search warrant for them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was my understanding that the guns were to be held for 30 days and then released to the Chicago Police Department.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that the understanding or arrangement when they were first brought in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the end of the 30-day period, I instructed Sergeant Neal Wilson, a Community Service Sergeant, to contact Reverend Fry with a view of having the guns turned in. Sergeant Wilson left a report dated the 4th of August.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you the report?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the man you instructed to get the guns?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the date of his report?

Mr. GRIFFIN. August 4, 1966.

The CHAIRMAN. That was right after 30 days had expired.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What does the report say ?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to read the final paragraph. It says:

Reverend Fry stated that since the agreement he had made with the Alcohol Tax Unit was not lived up to and the Blackstone Rangers were not being protected, he was not going to surrender the guns because the Rangers might need them to protect themselves. At this point this reporter excused himself and left the meeting.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the date of that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. August 4.

The CHAIRMAN. Let the whole report be received and marked “Exhibit 191."

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 191" for reference and follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 191

THIRD DISTRICT, August 4, 1966.

To: District Commander, Third District

From: Sgt. Neal Wilson, No. 1438

Subject: Information report

1. On August 3, 1966 at 1900 hours, this reporter was notified by telephone at his home by Sergeant Garland Davis of the Youth Group Intelligence Section-Youth Division that Rev. John Fry, Pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, 6400 S. Kimbark had contacted him and said that he wanted to surrender some weapons that had been turned over to the church for safekeeping on July 2, 1966 by the Blackstone Rangers. The undersigned went to the First Presbyterian Church at 2030 hours where this reporter was met by Sgt. Davis and Rev. Fry. Rev. Fry informed this reporter that he was going to have a meeting with the Principals who were present at the conference where it was agreed that the Blackstone Rangers would turn in their weapons. Also present at this time were Carl Hamback and Francis Daggett of the U.S. Treasury Department, Alcohol Tax Unit, Tom Russell, Department of Investigation, City of Chicago, Charles LaPaglia, First Presbyterian Church, Lamar Bell of the Blackstone Rangers and Bernard Green of the Blackstone Rangers. The meeting started with Rev. Fry, the spokesman. Rev. Fry proceeded to tell the gathering that the Alcohol Tax Unit had come into the Blackstone Rangers territory and threatened them

with jail sentences if they did not turn in their guns. As a result of this, the rangers made an agreement with the Alcohol Tax Unit to turn over their guns to them with the condition that the guns be held in the church for a period of thirty days. During the thirty-day period, The Chicago Police Department was to protect the rangers from other youths gangs, and ease the pressure off the rangers. Rev. Fry continued by saying the Police Department had not taken the pressure off the rangers and was not giving the rangers the protection they were supposed to have from other youth gangs.

2. At this point Carl Hamback of the Alcohol Tax Unit interrupted Rev. Fry and told Rev. Fry that he was not at the meeting that this supposed agreement was made with the Alcohol Tax Unit and further stated that his unit could not make any agreement with anyone such as the one related by Rev. Fry. Carl Hamback stated that the agents which handled the turning in of the weapons where the agreement was made was not available, at this time due to other assignments. This reporting officer told Rev. Fry that the Chicago Police Department had made no agreement with anyone concerning the weapons or the protection of the Blackstone Rangers against other youth gangs and would not make any agreement with the rangers. Rev. Fry was told by the undersigned that the Blackstone Rangers would be arrested if they committed a crime as anyone else that breaks the law. At this point this reporter asked Rev. Fry if he intended to surrender the guns that were turned into the church on July 2, 1966.

3. Rev. Fry stated that since the agreement he had made with the Alcohol Tax Unit was not lived up to and the Blackstone Rangers were not being protected, he was not going to surrender the guns because the rangers might need them to protect themselves. At this point this reporter excused himself and left the meeting.

Sgt. NEAL WILSON No. 1438.

The CHAIRMAN. I hand you here a photograph; and ask you if you can identify it.

(Handed to witness.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. This is a photograph of the weapons that were recovered from the First Presbyterian Church on the 10th of November 1966.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that cover all of the weapons?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many are there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. There are approximately 58 here, sir, counting the knives, the cross bow.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there a hand grenade?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; but there was no powder in the hand grenade. The CHAIRMAN. It was an empty one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let that be made exhibit 192.

(The photograph was marked "Exhibit No. 192" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might add, Mr. Chairman, that we checked the serial numbers on certain of these pieces that bore serial numbers, and several of these weapons were found to have been taken in burglaries. The CHAIRMAN. How long before?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Approximately-well, October 5, 1965.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean now, when you went in there and got the guns with a search warrant in November; is that right? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What date in November?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The 10th of November 1966.

The CHAIRMAN. The 10th of November 1966. You found what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We found several revolvers that had been taken in burglaries.