The CHAIRMAN. Since when? Mr. GRIFFIN. A year previously, sir. The CHAIRMAN. A year previously? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, some of these weapons were stolen weapons? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And did you find any in there that had been taken since the 4th of July? Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. But there were guns that had been taken in burglaries prior to that time? Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the turn-in, sir. The CHAIRMAN. How many? Mr. GRIFFIN. Two. The CHAIRMAN. Two. Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Handguns. The CHAIRMAN. Can you identify the two guns? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Índicate the two guns by marking them on the exhibit. Mr. GRIFFIN. I can't indicate them. I would have to check the serial numbers. The CHAIRMAN. Get the serial numbers. I don't know whether the exhibit shows the serial numbers. Mr. GRIFFIN. It does not. The CHAIRMAN. Get them and later indicate them. Where is this man Wilson you sent out there? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Where is he? Mr. GRIFFIN. He is in Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Is he available for testimony Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN (continued). To confirm that report? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Is that report true, that you refused to give up the guns when you were asked to deliver them? TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY-Resumed Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You say that is not true? Reverend FRY. The contents of that meeting dealt exclusively with the fact that the adult participants had not lived up to the prior agreement. The CHAIRMAN. Who hadn't lived up to it? Reverend FRY. The police representatives. The CHAIRMAN. What had he promised to do that he had not lived up to? Reverend FRY. To add additional units on Woodlawn Avenue to protect possible intrusions on Ranger territory by the Disciples. The CHAIRMAN. You have a territory there to protect. What kind of territory? What does it need protection from? Reverend FRY. From intrusion from the Disciples at that point. The CHAIRMAN. From intrusion by the Disciples? The CHAIRMAN. What kind of intrusion? The CHAIRMAN. So you did need the weapons? Reverend FRY. They voluntarily surrendered their weapons. The CHAIRMAN. I know they surrendered what they had then. But you refused to turn them in. Did you refuse to turn them in because they needed the weapons? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That wasn't involved? Reverend FRY. That is a distortion of the reason. The CHAIRMAN. But they had broken their agreement and for that reason you wouldn't turn the weapons in? Reverend FRY. I did not refuse to turn in the weapons. I am trying to make this clear. The CHAIRMAN. Why would they have to get a search warrant and go out and get them if you were willing to turn them over voluntarily? Reverend FRY. They could have gotten the weapons any time, inasmuch as the weapons belonged to the police, not to us. We were a third party, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. No, they belonged to the Rangers, didn't they? Reverend FRY. They had been surrendered. They were the property of the Chicago Police Department. The CHAIRMAN. Why didn't you give them to the police department when they asked for them? Reverend FRY. The police might have had them any time when they asked. The CHAIRMAN. You are saying they could have had them, but they are saying they asked for them and couldn't get them. You say that is not true? Reverend FRY. I am saying that is a distortion of the meeting. Reverend FRY. I was very reluctant to let the authorities at this point out of a bargain which they still had not carried through with, and on the basis of that I kept pressing the fact, "Why don't you adult representatives of law and order keep your part of the bargain?" The CHAIRMAN. And you weren't going to let the guns go to them until they did, is that right? Reverend FRY. I am stating quite specifically what my position was. The CHAIRMAN. Your position was they wouldn't get the guns if they didn't keep their part of the bargain. Reverend FRY. Sergeant Wilson may have inferred that, although I never said it. The CHAIRMAN. What did you say? It was something from which he could and should have inferred it. Reverend FRY. He could have found a very angry man that night, yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You were? Reverend FRY. I was intensely angry, yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And you wouldn't turn the guns over to him? Reverend FRY. I was never asked specifically to turn them over. The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean to say they came out there to get the guns and you weren't asked to turn them over? Reverend FRY. This was not the purpose for which the meeting was called. The CHAIRMAN. What was the meeting called for? Reverend FRY. The meeting was called in order to reconvene a series of negotiators, some of whom were acting in bad faith. That was the purpose. The CHAIRMAN. Who were they? Name them. Reverend FRY. The head. The CHAIRMAN. The head doesn't name them. Reverend FRY. I can produce them. I do not have them right now, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Will you get their names, those who were in bad faith in not carrying out their bargain, and submit those for the record? Reverend FRY. I would be pleased to. (The following information was submitted by William W. Brackett on behalf of Rev. John Fry:) It is felt that Mr. Zelkovich left on vacation and that the agreed upon collection of weapons in the area of the "Disciple" group did not take place. It is felt that Sergeant Wilson's pledge of increased police protection along Woodlawn Avenue in Chicago did not take place. Senator MUNDT. The head of what? Reverend FRY. Of the Treasury Department unit in Chicago. He was in attendance. Sergeant Wilson was in attendance as representative of Commander Griffin. Senator MUNDT. Was this gentleman Commander Griffin? Reverend FRY. No. Commander Griffin was represented by Sergeant Wilson, from whose report the commander was reading. Senator MUNDT. Commander, you were there when they picked up guns, were you? the Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir, I was not. Senator MUNDT. You were not there at that time? Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. Senator MUNDT. Where were the guns when they picked them up? Reverend FRY. In the wall safe where they had been stored by the police after being inventoried. Senator MUNDT. Äll 58 of them-shotguns, rifles? Reverend FRY. In the wall safe, the combination of which was known only to two elderly ladies on the staff of the church. Senator MUNDT. How big is the safe? Reverend FRY. It is an enormous safe that was constructed-I would say the dimensions are 5 by 5 by 8. Senator MUNDT. More like a vault. Reverend FRY. It is a vault, yes, sir. Senator MUNDT. I couldn't figure out how you would get 58 guns in a safe. Reverend FRY. It is a very large walk-in safe. TESTIMONY OF COMDR. WILLIAM R. GRIFFIN-Resumed Senator CURTIS. After the Rangers turned in all of their guns on July 3, how many shootings were members of the Rangers involved in? Mr. GRIFFIN. I couldn't give you a specific number of shootings that they were involved in, but this had very little impact, relative to the situation that existed then. The shootings still continue. Sir, I would like to make a further reference. Sergeant Wilson submitted a report on the Monday following the weekend that these weapons were turned in. This was the first time that I became knowledgeable as to the actual turn-in. I would like to quote. He makes reference The CHAIRMAN. Is that a previous report that he made at the time the weapons were turned in? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That was during the 30-day period, or waiting time? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. Mr. GRIFFIN. He says, After 30 days the weapons are to be turned over to the Chicago Police Department. Reverend Walker, who is also minister at the First Presbyterian Church, stated that the weapons would be hidden in the church and a guard placed over them. And Sergeant Wilson goes on to relate that: It is apparent to the undersigned that the conditions of the surrender of weapons by the Blackstone Rangers is merely strategy being used by them to help the Rangers in bargaining for leniency in several court cases pending in Circuit Court. It is also felt that the weapons surrendered are only a few in the possession of the gang. The CHAIRMAN. You mean even at that time, when they were first turned in, the report of your man was that in his opinion there were only a few turned in? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That is what has been testified to here by someone else. That is the report he gave you at that time? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did that give you continuing concern about the situation? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN FRY-Resumed Senator MUNDT. Reverend Fry, was the portion of the commander's statement correct when he said that at the time the guns were turned in it was understood they would be held for 30 days and then turned over to the police department? Reverend FRY. This wasn't the final agreement at a prior meeting. I was out of town when this happened, Senator Mundt, and my associate was actually on the scene when the disarmament took place. I am not competent to say what kind of specific arrangements he may have made. Senator MUNDT. Is that Reverend Walker? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator MUNDT. You were not there? Reverend FRY. No, sir. I was out of town. Senator MUNDT. Did they give the owners of the guns any receipt as they took them in? Reverend FRY. No, sir. These were thereafter not the property of the Blackstone Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. I have one other question about Hairston and Jeff Fort. I believe they both worked for the church also. Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What service did they perform? Reverend FRY. They were instrumental through the work they did with their organization in greatly reducing violence in Woodlawn, in creating many positive programs, and in being instrumental in providing coherence in an otherwise very chaotic environment. The CHAIRMAN. How much did the church pay them for this service? Reverend FRY. They received something like $100 a week. The CHAIRMAN. $100 a week? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. For doing what? For protecting the church? Reverend FRY. No, sir. They were operating in the community as agents of a new style of community life. The CHAIRMAN. As agents of a new style of what? The CHAIRMAN. Community life? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Ghetto community life. The CHAIRMAN. What was the style that was so new? What style did they have that was new to community life? Reverend FRY. That the black people, by organizing, by staying together, can make it possible for all black brothers and sisters to get a fair shake in this country. The CHAIRMAN. This was one of these movements? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And the church paid these two $100 a week each? That is the kind of service they were rendering to the church? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And yet you never prayed for them when you had them together, is that right? You weren't interested in their souls, but in just promoting these so-called good ideas? Reverend FRY. There are many different ways to pray, Mr. Chair man. The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I know. Reverend FRY. All right. The CHAIRMAN. You had a different way for that, did you? Reverend FRY. No, sir. You asked me specifically about prayer meetings, and I answered negatively about that. You didn't ask on the general subject of prayer. The CHAIRMAN. Did you hold any prayer with them when you got them in there to consult with them? Did you have them bow their heads and pray with you? |