of some anti-social activities that are going on. So, if they realize that money is over there, how about joining in and getting a little bit of it over here. This is what is happening.

GANGS PLAY ONE AGENCY AGAINST ANOTHER FOR FINANCIAL GAINS

I would like to recite the following situation that developed. A gang member nicknamed "Heads," whom I know very well and who has visited my office many times, came into my office in late 1967 and remarked that he was quite upset by the gang project. Why? Because he claims he went to high school for three years and Nick Dorenzo only went to high school for one year. Poor "Heads" was only getting $45 a week while Dorenzo was getting $5,200 annually. He didn't understand why, so he went to Reverend Brazier, who heads up the TWO project for the gangs. Reverend Brazier told him it was possible they would put a new center up on 65th Street to help the Falcons out. Now, you see, this is a wonderful way to play one against the other.

Further evidence of this is the fact that a legitimate agency, such as the Chicago Woodlawn Boys' Club, was willing to work with these individuals in areas other than the recreational program. After this, the First Presbyterian Church and Reverend John Fry promised the Rangers something else. The Rangers quickly left the Boys' Club and went over to Reverend Fry because he had something more to offer. Then they played Reverend Fry against another agency. Then, when Youth Action decided they were going to build outposts for recreation, one group couldn't get along with another, so Youth Action had to build a center at 67th and Blackstone and another at 63rd and Ingleside to placate these groups.

Then, on top of all this, the Blackstone Rangers reportedly split into two groups. One group is led by Jeff Fort and they became known as the Black Prince. They became associated with the so-called Black Power Movement. The other group stayed with Eugene Hairston and they are still known as Blackstone Rangers. These two groups played one against the other. How did they do it? Well, Jeff Fort decided to move his center of location away from the First Presbyterian Church and they tried to get a church over on 73rd and Maryland or somewhere in that area. When the citizens in that area found out about this, they raised up a storm and Commander Griffin of the Third District finally had to put a stop to it.

This shows that one group was willing to play one against the other to get the money in order to show that this is power. I have read the foregoing statement, and to the best of my knowledge it is true and correct.

(S) Yakir W. Korey YAKIR W. KOREY. (S) ELIZABETH JACKSON,

Sworn and subscribed before me the 20th day of May, 1968.

Notary Public.

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to read some excerpts from the affidavit and then interrogate the witness a little about it.

My name is Yakir W. Korey and I am principal of the James Wadsworth Upper Grade Center, 6420 South University Avenue, Chicago, Ill. This school is located in the Woodlawn section on the South Side of Chicago, Ill.

Do you know where that is located?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is it from your church?
Reverend FRY. Two blocks.

The CHAIRMAN. Very good.

This school is located in the Woodlawn section on the South Side of Chicago. The Wadsworth complex contains approximately 2,000 students, most of whom are Negro with the exception of a few Puerto Ricans and orientals.

The Wadsworth Upper Grade Center is located in what is called Disciple Turf.

Do you know what that Disciple Turf refers to?

Reverend FRY. I believe I do, yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Reverend FRY. I believe I know.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you tell us?

Reverend FRY. There is an unofficial dividing line running north and south through the community of Woodlawn and that is generally known as Woodlawn Avenue. Everything west of Woodlawn Avenue is generally Disciple area.

The CHAIRMAN. The Disciple gang territory. That is what you mean?

Reverend FRY. And everything east is Ranger territory.

The CHAIRMAN. So he is located in what is called Disciple Turf. Do schoolchildren go from this imaginary or fictitious dividing line between the Disciples and the Rangers? Do the regular schoolchildren going to school cross that line in going to school?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He says:

The Disciples, along with the Blackstone Rangers, are well-known Negro teenage gangs. The Wadsworth school itself is located in Disciple territory, but the majority of students who attend are members of the Blackstone Rangers.

I would like to furnish to the subcommittee some of my experiences in dealing with these gangs when I became principal of the Wadsworth Upper Grade Center during the first school term starting in 1966. In September 1966, I discovered that children who were enrolled in my school had to pay 25 cents a day or $1.25 a week to the Rangers in order to get to school because they had to cross through territory controlled by the Rangers.

Do you know anything about that?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You never heard of it?

Reverend FRY. I have heard of it, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard of it from some of the mothers, too, didn't you, of the children?

Reverend FRY. I have tried to answer that as fully as I can. I do not recall, and my recollection is pretty good generally, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. I am not concerned much about your recollection. The leaders of the Rangers at the time were Jeff Fort and Eugene Hairston. That is while this was going on.

During the early part of the school term in 1966, I had to negotiate with top gang leaders of the Rangers and the Disciples in order to obtain permission for students to come in to my school.

Do you know anything about that?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. This is news to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you say that gangs or organizations that conducted themselves that way and imposed such a requirement and condition like that, they were good community organizations?

Reverend FRY. If that were true, I would agree with you. They would not be.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any reason why this school principal would make such a statement if it wasn't true?

Reverend FRY. I am not competent to answer that question.
The CHAIRMAN. He said:

I recall that in September 1966, for the first 2 months of school, it was very difficult to get many of our children to school because of the constant threats

and fear of recrimination. After about 2 months, I recognized that the problem had to be met head-on and it took me 22 months to establish contact with gang leaders from both groups who finally met in my office.

This is a wonderful organization out there for the community. They come to the principal of the school for a conference as to whether they will let the children come to school. Do you understand the import of this?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing):

The Disciples were represented by Nicholas Dorenzo and Eugene Hairston, known as "Bull," represented the Blackstone Rangers.

Were you consulted in your legal capacity in any way about this? Reverend FRY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing):

I tried to explain to the people involved that the school, in order to function, would have to act as the church did in the Middle Ages; the school would be, in effect, neutral ground; that youngsters had to come to school and be able to move freely from 8 o'clock in the morning until 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon. This informal agreement was finalized some time in March 1967. Then he goes on to say:

It is difficult enough to attempt an educational program in what is called an inner city school. It is even more difficult to really have a program of educational excellence when you are competing with a program that promises money or gives money to students in order for them to obtain what I consider an inferior education.

He was having to compete, to get the children to come to the public school, with this Government-supported school, gang school, taught by these Main 21's, who were giving them an inferior education, and paying them to come to the school.

But I understood you this morning to say that that is what you regarded as a superior education to that given in the school, is that right?

Reverend FRY. I was not saying that, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. What were you saying? I understood they would get better training and better education.

Reverend FRY. I was pointing to the general failure of schools like Wadsworth School to really reach many of the students.

The CHAIRMAN. I can understand the difficulty they have reaching them when they have to pay up a penalty, pay up tribute, to a gang to get to the schoolhouse. I can understand some of the difficulty, can't you?

Reverend FRY. Mr. Chairman, I find this just as repugnant as you do. That has been precisely the aim of our program, to try in some way to reduce this kind of senseless violence.

The CHAIRMAN. You admit this was going on, then, do you? How can you propose to reduce it if you didn't know it was going on, sir? Reverend FRY. I am admitting that in a general ghetto society there is an enormous quantity of general violence.

The CHAIRMAN. But in this particular area

Reverend FRY. In this particular area I do not have concrete knowledge that these shakedowns were occurring. I do have concrete knowledge

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be concerned about it as a citizen and as a minister to go out there and try to find out about it?

Reverend FRY. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you spend any of this money given to you for educational purposes to try to find out if these things were going on and to clean it up?

Reverend FRY. One time I sought to get hard facts on this. I found they turned negative.

The CHAIRMAN. Then the affiant talks about:

competing with a program that promises money or gives money to students in order for them to "obtain what I consider an inferior education,"

The affiant goes on to say—

I am referring here to the June 1967 OEO Direct Grant to The Woodlawn Organization (TWO) to set up schools or centers which were staffed by dropouts who were, in effect, gang leaders. These instructors, in turn, were to teach other dropouts. Trainees that attended the school were to be paid $45 a week.

It was brought to my attention in the fall of 1967 that some of our students were participating in the Manpower Training Project for the two gangs (Rangers and Disciples). These students had not reached the "dropout" age from compulsory attendance in certified schools. Parents came into my office claiming that their children in attempting to come to school, had been threatened that they should go to either the Ranger or Disciple center instead of attending the Wadsworth School.

Within recent weeks, we had an episode of a child, his name was "Percy," who we had difficulty locating. In fact, it took our attendance officer 3 months to find this boy because he was hiding every time he left the house instead of coming to our school because a number of Rangers were standing on the corner waiting for him so they could recruit him into their gang school.

Do you recall that sort of activity in an uplift organization? Reverend FRY. That is a question you might properly ask the Rangers themselves. I, to my knowledge, have never seen that, do not know that it actually occurred.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't believe it occurred, do you?
Reverend FRY. I don't know, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. With so much of this going on, Preacher, it seems to me that you could demonstrate here today some effort you made to really establish the truth of it and do something about it.

Can you? Can you give us one demonstration of anything you actually did?

Reverend FRY. To establish the truth

The CHAIRMAN. To establish the truth or falsity about it and do something about it?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir, I have already testified to my efforts to determine whether or not

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the most you can tell us? Is that the most you did, what you told us?

Reverend FRY. We have run a very extensive program.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of an extensive program do you say you ran?

Reverend FRY. There are many kinds of projects that have grown out of our involvement with the Blackstone Rangers. I would point to these efforts, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. He goes on to say:

In early October 1967, a mother came in with her boy, Michael Hunter (a boy we had been looking for since the second week in September). She wanted to

know if her son was attending our school. We answered yes since he had lived in our attendance area. When we inquired as to where her boy had been, she told me he was attending the Ranger School. She then produced for me a stub of a check that this boy had received for attending the Ranger school at the end of September and early part of October 1967. This boy, by the way, was under 16 years of age. I made a copy of these check stubs and showed them to my superior.

This man Rose testified that these things were going on, that they were soliciting these students out of the public schools and getting them to come into this program to be paid, so as to get a kickback from them.

Do you say that didn't occur?

Reverend FRY. I say I don't know that it did occur.

Senator MUNDT. Reverend, it seems to me, in view of what you said this morning in your prepared statement, in which you statedand I think I quote you correctly although I paraphrase your statement that you considered Rose's testimony a fabrication of falsehoods. Is that right?

Reverend FRY. I pointed to a number of successive lies, yes, sir. Senator MUNDT. You indicated he was lying to the committee.

Reverend FRY. Yes. And I qualified that because I have not seen any transcript, Senator Mundt, and I am only dealing with the material in the Chicago papers.

Senator MUNDT. I don't know what has appeared in the Chicago papers.

Reverend FRY. I tried to be responsive to that.

Senator MUNDT. But in all events, here you have a principal of a school itemizing case after case which jibes entirely with what Mr. Rose told this committee. I think if you are going to categorize Mr. Rose's statement as a falsehood, which it may or may not be, you ought to be able to come up with some kind of evidence showing that the things he testified to are false. All you say is that to the best of your knowledge you don't know. To the best of your knowledge, you don't know whether he lied to this committee or not, then, do you?

Reverend FRY. I was called later Friday afternoon. I have not seen a transcript of what he said.

The CHAIRMAN. A transcript is available.

Reverend FRY. Then I could be responsive to his whole statement. Senator MUNDT. I don't know what the newspapers said. But certainly what you said doesn't jibe with the evidence we got from Mr. Rose. The transcript we will make available to you, and the supporting evidence of the police department and this principal of the Wadsworth school. His sole interest, I assume, was to make sure that the truancy laws were complied with and that the children in the neighborhood got the proper education. That was his function.

Where were these Ranger schools held, by the way? Did they have a school house of their own?

Reverend FRY. They had two training centers. One at 6750 South Stony Island, and the other center located on the third floor of our church.

Senator MUNDT. One was in your church and one was some place else? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.