RIOTS, CIVIL AND CRIMINAL DISORDERS TUESDAY, JUNE 25, 1968 U.S. SENATE, PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 10:25 a.m. in room 3302, New Senate Office Building, pursuant to Senate Resolution 216, agreed to March 15, 1968, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Members of the subcommittee present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, of Arkansas; Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, of South Dakota; and Senator Carl T. Curtis, Republican, of Nebraska. Also present: Jerome S. Adlerman, general counsel; LaVern J. Duffy, assistant counsel; John J. Walsh, investigator; Dr. Robert E. Dunne, assistant counsel; Philip W. Morgan, chief counsel to the minority; John Brick, investigator; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. (Members present at time of reconvening: Senators McClellan and Curtis.) TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, WILLIAM BRACKETT-Resumed The CHAIRMAN. Before we go into some of these other members of Main 21, Reverend Fry, I want to ask you a few questions. Did the Rangers pay rent for their church headquarters? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. How much space do they occupy free of rent? Reverend FRY. They make partial use of the third floor. The CHAIRMAN. The third floor? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Do they have a special office, a separate office, for their purposes? Reverend FRY. There is one room which they use, along with other people, and some of their materials are left there. The CHAIRMAN. After you got this project, how much did the project pay you for that space? Reverend FRY. $343 a month, I believe, sir. The CHAIRMAN. So you began charging rent after you got the project? Reverend FRY. No sir, in accordance with the provisions of the grant The CHAIRMAN. I understand, in the grant, rent was included. But you had the same folks there after you got the grant, occupying the same premises, didn't you, for which they had not been paying rent? Reverend FRY. Under quite different circumstances. The CHAIRMAN. What was the difference in the circumstances? Reverend FRY. The use of the third floor before the grant period was conditioned on the availability of the premises to the Rangers inasmuch as other groups were entitled to their use as well. Under the terms of the grant lease, the third floor was exclusively used as a training center during the hours 8 in the morning until 5 in the afternoon. The CHAIRMAN. It was used as a training center? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir, during those hours. The CHAIRMAN. Prior to that time, the Rangers had an office up there. How large was it? Reverend FRY. It is a normal size room, 15 by 20, I would judge. The CHAIRMAN. 15 by 20. And during that time, they used the third floor when they needed it or when it wasn't occupied by anything else? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. How many meetings did they have a week? Reverend FRY. That is indeterminate. They might have two, they might have 10, they might have none. The CHAIRMAN. They held all their meetings there, didn't they? Reverend FRY. Not all, no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Where did they hold the others? Reverend FRY. At the St. Cyril's Roman Catholic Church, St. Anne's Roman Catholic Church, the Holy Trinity Church and St. Ambrose. The CHAIRMAN. Did they have offices in those churches, too? Reverend FRY. They have regular facilities that they feel free to use, Mr. Chairman. (At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.) The CHAIRMAN. Did you receive any compensation yourself from the Rangers for the services you rendered them as legal adviser, either directly or indirectly? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did the church receive anything from them, either directly or indirectly, as a result of your being their legal adviser? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. How about Charles LaPaglia? Did he receive, so far as you know, any money from the Rangers, directly or indirectly, as a part of his salary? Reverend FRY. To my knowledge, he received no money from the Rangers. His salary came exclusively from the Teen Education Fund. The CHAIRMAN. He only received his money from the church? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Were there any instructions, any courses given, any teachings or training with respect to crime, and anticrime, and gangsterism? Was that in the curriculums, anything along that line? Reverend FRY. In the job training program, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Reverend FRY. The curriculum, as I understand it, was exclusively to mathematics and literacy skills. The CHAIRMAN. Mathematics and what? The CHAIRMAN. Mathematics and literacy skills? The CHAIRMAN. That was the exclusive program? The CHAIRMAN. Of the what? Reverend FRY. This was the basic component of the curriculum. Did the gang members know about a tunnel and a loft in your church? Reverend FRY. It is a possibility they knew, yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of them visiting the tunnel and the loft, any of them? Reverend FRY. I do not know. The CHAIRMAN. Did you visit the tunnel and the loft while they were headquartered there? Reverend FRY. I have on many separate occasions. Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You visited the tunnel and the loft? The CHAIRMAN. What would be the occasion for visiting the loft? Reverend FRY. The occasion for visiting both the loft and the tunnel proceeded out of allegations made publicly that there were illicit materials stored there, and on receiving such information I made an immediate check on several occasions and, Mr. Chairman, I never found a thing. The CHAIRMAN. You never found anything? Reverend FRY. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if the gang used the loft or the tunnel for any purpose, particularly for storage purposes of either weapons or ammunition, bombs or anything on that order? Reverend FRY. I do not know of such activity, no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions along this line from other members? Senator CURTIS. My questions are just general. The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. I wanted to get a little information about their teachers. Senator CURTIS. Was extortion ever discussed, pro or con, in your presence by members of the Rangers? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. How many times? Reverend FRY. At one point there was extensive discussion. Senator CURTIS. About how many were present? Reverend FRY. This was perhaps 10 altogether. Senator CURTIS. Will you name as many of them as you can remember? Reverend FRY. Mr. Hairston, Mr. Fort, Mr. Green, Mr. Troop, to my recollection. Senator CURTIS. Was Rose present? Reverend FRY. No, sir. Senator CURTIS. Who were some of the others? Reverend FRY. At this point, it was not a formal meeting, Senator Curtis. This was a discussion. Senator CURTIS. I don't care what kind of meeting it was. Reverend FRY. What I am trying to indicate to you, sir, is that some people might come in for a few minutes and go out. Senator CURTIS. Did you just listen or did you speak? Reverend FRY. I was extensively involved in that discussion inasmuch as allegations had come to my attention that there was extortion going on around Hyde Park High School, and I deliberately raised with them these allegations. Following that meeting, the Rangers determined that they would end extortion going on around Hyde Park High School and they thereafter called a press conference in which they announced their intention. Senator CURTIS. They said that there was extortion going on? Reverend FRY. They were well aware of much extortion going on, and they were being accused as the major extorters. Senator CURTIS. So it was not a discussion of allegations, but it was a discussion of what they were doing? Reverend FRY. It was a discussion, from my standpoint, of allegations that had been made about major extortion going on. Senator CURTIS. Major? Reverend FRY. Major. Senator CURTIS. Did they discuss any minor extortion? So the discussion just centered on extortion that might be called extensive? Reverend FRY. Yes. Senator CURTIS. And a decision was arrived at to discontinue it? Reverend FRY. I want to make it clear that the Rangers were apprising me of the fact that numbers of older men from what they called 43d Street were coming into the area surrounding Hyde Park High School and were operating a very extensive extortion and, therefore, the Rangers determined that they would end that and all extortion around Hyde Park High School. Senator CURTIS. Did you know that George Rose went on television in reference to extortion? Reverend FRY. George Rose was the spokesman for the Rangers at that press conference, and at that press conference Mr. Rose, in behalf of the Ranger leadership, told the people of Chicago that they were being blamed for all the extortion going on around Hyde Park High School; therefore, they were going to end it, that the school seemed unable to end it, that the police seemed unable to end it. The Rangers were going to end it. Senator CURTIS. Were they going to end it or discontinue it? Senator CURTIS. Does that imply that somebody else was doing it and they were going to assume police power and end it? Reverend FRY. That is my assumption; yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. That the Rangers were going to force others to stop extortion? Reverend FRY. That they would use their organization in order to end the extortion of pupils in Hyde Park High School. Senator CURTIS. About when was this? Reverend FRY. This was in September of 1966. Senator CURTIS. And at that time, you had full confidence in George Rose? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. Do you still have full confidence in George Rose? Reverend FRY. I do not, sir. Senator CURTIS. When did your opinion change? Reverend FRY. My opinion changed most drastically last Friday. Senator CURTIS. Why? Reverend FRY. Because of the materials that I encountered in the press. Senator CURTIs. But nothing up until he told his story here under oath had caused you to change your opinion of him to any great degree. Reverend FRY. I had been in conversation with Mr. LaPaglia about the fact that George Rose was no longer with the Ranger organization, and that fact, the fact that I heard this, made me then change somewhat my opinion. Senator CURTIS. Is that to a man's discredit, that he withdraws from the Blackstone Rangers? Reverend FRY. No, sir. Senator CURTIS. But in your case it did change your opinion of him. Reverend FRY. It changed my opinion inasmuch as he no longer would have been prominent in my general range of activities. Senator CURTIS. He would no longer be prominent in your activities. He would no longer be subject to their discipline? Reverend FRY. That is true, sir. Senator CURTIS. Speaking of Charles LaPaglia, do you vouch for his integrity? Reverend FRY. I do, sir. Senator CURTIS. What kind of a car does he own? Reverend FRY. A Volkswagen microbus. Senator CURTIS. A Volkswagen microbus. Do you happen to know what color it is? Reverend FRY. It is red and cream. Senator CURTIS. Did he ever use that car to transport things for the Blackstone Rangers? Reverend FRY. Not to my knowledge, and I feel very confident that where my knowledge does not go that he did not. Senator CURTIS. You said yesterday you never visited the Cook County jail. Did you ever try to visit the Cook County jail? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. How many times? Reverend FRY. I tried on two occasions under the administration of Warden Johnson and on one occasion under the administration of Warden Moore. Senator CURTIS. Did you succeed? Reverend FRY. I was unsuccessful in all three attempts. Senator CURTIS. What were you told as to why you couldn't get into the jail? |