Rangers, but to discredit myself, to discredit the First Presbyterian
Church.

Senator CURTIS. You question the integrity of the entire unit?
Reverend FRY. The unit as a whole, yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. James Doyle testified here, too. Do you question his integrity?

Reverend FRY. I question the integrity of the unit as a whole. I am not prepared to speak for each person because I do not know each person.

I am only dealing with the unit as a corporate structure.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know Winston Moore?

Reverend FRY. I understand that the man who displayed such animosity against me at the county jail is Winston Moore.

Senator CURTIS. Do you question his testimony given under oath? Reverend FRY. I have not yet had the opportunity to read his testimony.

Senator CURTIS. You haven't read about it in the paper?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Has he said anything that has been called to your attention which you want to deny?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. He, I think, said something on this order, that I was extorting Negro people. I deny that. Senator CURTIS. That you were doing what?

Reverend FRY. Extorting Negro people.

Senator CURTIS. Distorting?

Reverend FRY. Extorting Negro people, something on that order. I am not quoting directly. I am trying to remember accurately. I certainly do deny that.

Senator CURTIS. You favor doing away with the entire gang intelligence?

Reverend FRY. I have repeatedly called for that, yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. That is all at this time, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mundt.

Senator MUNDT. I would like to ask you a few questions about George Rose.

How long have you known him?

Reverend FRY. In the neighborhood of 2 years, Senator Mundt. Senator MUNDT. Two years?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. He is listed up there as "war lord." What are the functions of a war lord in the Blackstone Rangers?

Reverend FRY. I have no idea.

Senator MUNDT. He is one of the top three people. You ought to have some idea of what he did.

Reverend FRY. I am not involved in the actual functioning of the Ranger organization, and I do not have knowledge of who is war lord and what is a war lord, or if in fact they have war lords. I don't know that for a fact.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know a Mae Rose?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. The last name is Shelton?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

18.

Senator MUNDT. She is connected with the church, is she not?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. She is a ruling elder of our church, one of

Senator MUNDT. Is she a colored lady or a white lady?

Reverend FRY. She is a black lady.

Senator MUNDT. Does the Rose name indicate she is with the same

family as George Rose?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. Her name is Mae Rose Shelton.

Senator MUNDT. Is she a married lady?

Reverend FRY. She is married and divorced.

Senator MUNDT. When her name was Mae Rose, was she a sister of George Rose? Was she from the same Rose family?

Reverend FRY. I think, Senator Mundt, Rose is her middle name. Senator MUNDT. You were going to tell me what she did for the church. Is she on the payroll of the church?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. She is a ruling elder, elected by the congregation.

Senator Mundt. One of the ruling elders?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Has she anything to do with the Blackstone Rangers?

Reverend FRY. She has been a friend and supporter of the Blackstone Rangers, yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Does she meet, sometimes, like you do, with the Rangers, consult with them, guide them or give them any direction?

Reverend FRY. She has, on numerous occasions, been in the church when Rangers were in the church, and to my knowledge, I have seen her on numerous times talking with individual Rangers.

Senator MUNDT. Did you say you were never permitted to visit any of the Rangers who are incarcerated in the Cook County jail?

Reverend FRY. I have made three attempts, as I have testified, Senator Mundt.

Senator MUNDT. You say you made three attempts and didn't succeed and you gave the reasons why-that it was off hours, and that they had had their quota of visitors for that day.

Have you ever visited any time when you did succeed, or were three attempts all you ever made?

Reverend FRY. Only these three times, yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You never talked to Mr. Hairston since he has been in jail?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. On one occasion when he had his original appearance for a bond hearing, his attorney asked me to visit him in the bullpen behind the courtroom in order to introduce the lawyer, Mr. Cotsirilos, to Mr. Hairston.

Senator MUNDT. Did you get any communications, directly or indirectly, while he was in jail?

Reverend FRY. No.

Senator MUNDT. He never wrote you a letter?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. He never sent you a message?

Reverend FRY. He may have written a letter. Give me a moment to recollect, please.

Senator MUNDT. Take your time.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Reverend FRY. I will have to hold it open, that he may have written a letter.

Senator MUNDT. Can you find out and file the information for the record?

Reverend FRY. I would be pleased to.

Senator MUNDT. Categorically, yes or no. I want a categorical answer, "Yes" or "No."

After you have time to research your memory or your file, I want a direct answer supplied for the record.

Mr. BRACKETT. Do you mean yes or no, as to whether or not the letter was received or written?

Senator MUNDT. Yes.

Mr. BRACKETT. Yes, sir.

(The following information was submitted by William W. Brackett on behalf of Rev. John Fry:)

*** I am informed that Reverend Fry has no record of any such letter and has no recollection of receiving any such letter, and therefore does not believe such a letter was sent.

Senator MUNDT. You say a large part of your work with the Rangers, if I understood you right-and if I didn't, you correct me-was to help them get legal counsel and to help provide bond when they got in trouble.

Reverend FRY. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. You used the money of the teenage fund of the church for that purpose?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. I think you said you had in times past helped about 200 people. What was the most serious offense for which you ever provided bond?

Reverend FRY. I cannot recall because I was administratively responsible for these kinds of decisions, but I made very few of the concrete decisions of who was going to be given help.

This was determined not so much by any lack of compassion but lack of funds. We have very limited funds so we often had to make choices about whom we would help.

Senator MUNDT. That doesn't quite answer my question, does it? Reverend FRY. I am trying to point out to you that I am not being reluctant, but that my memory is very hazy, inasmuch as I was not directly involved.

Senator MUNDT. When you didn't provide it, who did?

Reverend FRY. Decisions were made by Mr. Charles La Paglia on these particular affairs.

Senator MUNDT. Is he on the payroll of the church?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Also on the payroll of the Government?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. He is strictly your assistant?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. How many assistants do you have in the same

category as Mr. LaPaglia?

Reverend FRY. One other who is paid directly out of our teen education fund.

Senator MUNDT. What is his name?

Reverend FRY. It is Miss Anne Schwalbach.

Senator MUNDT. So you have no recollection of the types of offenses for which bonds were issued?

Reverend FRY. No, sir; it is my best knowledge that well over 98 percent of our bonding activity was for disorderly conduct and resisting arrest type of charges and, thus, bonds in the amount of $25.

Senator MUNDT. Did you ever furnish any bonds for a narcotics

arrest?

Reverend FRY. I did not, no, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Did you ever furnish any bonds for a shooting or an alleged shooting?

Reverend FRY. I did not, no, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Your testimony is, then, and I want to get it straight, as far as you can recall the only bonds that you ever helped provide were disorderly conduct?

Reverend FRY. And resisting arrest, such minor things.

Senator MUNDT. And for resisting arrest, those two. You can't think of any others?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Mr. BRACKETT. Senator Mundt, I think it should be made clear that the witness is answering with respect to his own activities.

Senator MUNDT. That is right. Not his own activities but his own activities and his own knowledge of the activities of others. Mr. BRACKETT. Yes.

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Look at the first page of your testimony, Reverend Fry. I want to ask you a couple of questions. You say :

Second, I categorically deny the allegation that I undertook the surveillance functions for the Blackstone Rangers while Blackstone Rangers held so-called pot parties on the premises of the First Presbyterian Church.

I don't know that the allegation was ever made, that you undertook the surveillance function. I think the allegation was made that you knew about the pot parties on the premises of the First Presbyterian Church and that you had observed some of them.

Reverend FRY. I categorically deny that allegation.

Senator MUNDT. Why did you stick in the word "surveillance"? Reverend FRY. Because the news reports in the Chicago papers

were

Senator MUNDT. Would you excuse me a moment?

Do you know the odor of marihuana when you smell it? Can you recognize it!

Reverend FRY. Can I tell you a story?

Senator MUNDT. Surely, a true story.

Reverend FRY. When I was in the Marine Corps, I was with a buddy of mine and we were in Tiajuana. This marine buddy, who professed some expertise in these matters, identified for me the smell of marihuana. That is some 25 years ago and I don't know that my odor recollection facility would be topflight.

But if it were, I think I could recognize the smell of marihuana, I think so.

Senator MUNDT. I think so. I never have smelled it, but I understand it has a peculiar odor that you probably would recognize.

So I will ask you a question because we have testimony that you commented one time upon entering the church on the third floor that you said:

Is this marihuana that I smell?

Did you ever smell any marihuana around the church?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You never did? The odor never permeated the atmosphere?

Reverend FRY. Senator Mundt, I have not encountered that smell since it was identified for me in Tiajuana.

Senator MUNDT. OK.

Here is a sentence in your testimony that I wish you would explain.

The use of marihuana is a political and sensitive activity.

That is the first time I ever heard marihuana described as a political activity. Would you tell us what you have in mind?

Reverend FRY. Politically sensitive.

Senator MUNDT. There are the letters "ly" at the end?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. It doesn't show that on my copy of the statement. Reverend FRY. That is a typographical omission.

Senator MUNDT. The question is the same.

The use of marihuana is a politically and sensitive activity.

Reverend FRY. No, a politically sensitive activity.

Senator MUNDT. The word "and" does not show on your copy? How does it show on mine?

Reverend FRY. It perhaps was not corrected, but it should read as I read it into the record yesterday:

The use of marihuana is a politically sensitive activity.

Senator MUNDT. All right. With that correction what were you trying to convey to us by that sentence?

Reverend FRY. That there is widespread detection operation for the use of marihuana; that the general public has been led to believe, and I believe rightly, that this is possibly a dangerous activity. Senator MUNDT. Do you agree with that?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. And therefore

Senator MUNDT. Is it illegal in Chicago?

Reverend FRY. It is illegal; yes, sir. On the basis of this, I am pointing out that its use incurs detection, possible arrest, and if arrest, almost certain jailing. It is a very politically sensitive activity.

Senator MUNDT. Why didn't you state in simple English that the use of marihuana is an illegal activity?

Reverend FRY. It is, also. I understand it is an illegal activity. I didn't feel that I had to state that in my statement.

Senator MUNDT. And a dangerous one.

Reverend FRY. And a dangerous activity.

Senator MUNDT. If it is regarded as politically sensitive, I can't understand that. Does that mean that there are political implications in smoking marihuana? That leaves me cold.

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