Exhibit Q-1 was found to contain potassium and sodium nitrate compounds commonly employed in the homemade manufacture of black powder bombs.

The powder was also found to contain the elements aluminum and calcium in appreciable amounts, iron silicon and magnesium were found in trace amounts.

The exhibit will be deposited with the evidence and recovered property section.

I acquired the exhibit from them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have the original bomb that you found?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any difference in it now than when you found it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. The powder has been removed for safety measures. I have a sample of the powder. This cap [indicating] similar to this one was screwed on.

The CHAIRMAN. There is another cap that goes on it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When you found it, did it have these contents in it you have described?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir. It was one solid object when we found it.
The CHAIRMAN. Why do you call it a bomb?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This black powder packed in here and fused would have a terrific impact, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is the fuse?

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was no fuse. The fuse hole here [indicating] was covered with a piece of cellophane tape to keep the black powder from spilling out.

The CHAIRMAN. It was covered with cellophane tape?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the purpose of that hole?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The hole is for insertion of the fuse.

The CHAIRMAN. Insertion of the fuse.

Was Reverend Fry there when you made this search?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not to my knowledge, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He wasn't there so far as you know?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he know about your having found this in the church?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently he did, sir, because I understand there was a news conference and he denied the fact that this was a black powder bomb. He said that there was a piece of pipe recovered by police that was left in the building from the days that the church was constructed. The CHAIRMAN. He claimed in a public news statement about it that it was not a bomb, that it was simply a piece of pipe that had been left in the church when it was constructed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you state under oath whether that is true or not true?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I state under oath? I definitely can, sir.

85-779-68-pt. 10- -9

The CHAIRMAN. Could it have been there that long?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

I might add, sir, that the accumulation of rust that you see on the threads of this pipe has accumulated since we recovered this object from the basement of the church.

The CHAIRMAN. There was no rust on it when you first found it? Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. I made a personal examination of this myself. The CHAIRMAN. You made an examination of it yourself?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How are those bombs generally used?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I might coin a phrase, sir, the Mafia has used these bombs to threaten and intimidate people.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they explode?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of explosion would a bomb like that make, with that much powder in it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It might take out half of this room.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be that large?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The powder, the amount of powder, and how well it is packed, determines the explosive force of this type of bomb.

The CHAIRMAN. You say the way that was packed, it would do great damage?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it do enough damage to kill people?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Definitely.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not a usual part of the equipment of any church, is it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you find any other weapons at that time? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What were they?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We found a 24-inch sawed-off rifle, 45 rounds of .22 caliber ammunition, 6 pounds of .30 caliber ammunition, and a 9-inch hunting knife.

The CHAIRMAN. A hunting knife?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of knife do they call those? Is it a switch blade?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. It is exposed, with a handle.

The CHAIRMAN. That would not be illegal, would it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The knife is not illegal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the guns illegal?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it unusual to find a sawed-off gun in a church?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not this particular church, sir. We have found such before.

The CHAIRMAN. Not this particular church?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Had you found them there before?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Í understand there were some secret places in the walls or somewhere, I have been so advised. Did you ever find those secret places?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have been in the loft of this church, and we have been in the basement, and we have been in the tunnel.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you find any secret panels or anything?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether they are there or not. I just asked the question because I think someone has suggested there were. Anyhow, this was this year that this was found?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was January 9, sir, this year.

The CHAIRMAN. Did anybody ever claim the gun?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did anybody claim the bomb?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask a question right there?

Were you able to trace the gun?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. For what reason?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think this particular weapon had any serial number, sir.

Senator CURTIS. And when was this search made of the church? Mr. GRIFFIN. January 9, 1968.

Senator CURTIS. You were personally present?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was not present when the church was searched. I was present in my office when this contraband was brought in. Senator CURTIS. What were the names of the officers who did the search?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sgt. Roy Swanson.

Senator CURTIS. One man?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. Sergeant Swanson and his group.
Senator CURTIS. How many would be in that group?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Three men, sir.

Senator CURTIS. About how long after January 9 did you observe a statement in the press which purported to quote Mr. Fry that this was a piece of pipe left over from the building of the church? Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't recall, sir, if it was that night or the next night. Senator CURTIS. But soon thereafter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Very soon thereafter.

Senator CURTIS. Did it appear in more than one paper?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Senator CURTIS. But it was a Chicago paper?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. You think if we were interested, perhaps by searchin a few days in there, we could find it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might suggest, sir, there is one local newspaper there, the Chicago Defender. I think it might have appeared in there. Senator CURTIS. Is that a daily paper?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. It is a daily community paper.

Senator CURTIS. Were you able to trace where this ammunition might have come from?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Was it in the ordinary containers which the ammunition is usually sold when sold for lawful purposes, like hunting? Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. It was loose.

Senator CURTIS. On the floor, or on the table, or in a box, where? Mr. GRIFFIN. On the floor in the basement, sir.

Senator CURTIS. I would like to ask Mr. Fry a question.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN FRY-Resumed

Senator CURTIS. Mr. Fry, you have seen that piece of pipe displayed by Commander Griffin. You have heard his testimony.

Did you make a statement to any part of the press in the Chicago area sometime on or after January 9, 1968, in reference to a piece of pipe which the police said they found in your church?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir, I did make such a statement.

Senator CURTIS. Where did you make it?

Reverend FRY. As I recall, I made it over the telephone. It was a telephone interview.

Senator CURTIS. To whom?

me.

Reverend FRY. I simply cannot recall. A reporter who was asking

Senator CURTIS. What did you say?

Reverend FRY. To the best of my knowledge, I revealed reports from people who had been on the premises during this series of incidents and information they supplied me which may or may not have been accurate.

But nonetheless, they supplied it to me in good faith. It was that the pipe that was found was a piece of pipe that had been left over from a recent boiler conversion project, and it was simply on the basis of that information supplied me by very competent people that I made such a statement.

I want the record to show immediately that I am delighted with the fact that if there were a bomb in the church, Commander Griffin has gotten it out. I am delighted with that. We have a population of roughly 5,000 people who are in and out of our church every week, one way or another, in our schools, in our various programs.

The presence of a bomb would certainly constitute a very grave danger to these people. I am personally delighted that if this bomb were in fact in the church, that it was removed.

Senator CURTIS. Then your answer is yes, that you did make a statement to the press that this was a piece of pipe used in construction or repair?

Reverend FRY. This was information, sir.

Senator CURTIS. And Commander Griffin's statement that he observed that in the press is substantiated by you?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. So you did do that.

Had you ever seen that piece of pipe before?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Who told you that the police were wrong and that this was not a bomb, and that this was a piece of pipe used in a recent boiler conversion?

Reverend FRY. It was not reported to me, Senator Curtis, that this was a bomb. It was reported to me that it was a piece of pipe. Nor did I have any information, inasmuch as I was in a presbytery meeting during the course of these events until late that evening, that the word "bomb" had even been used.

I was not aware of that until very late in the evening. The person who furnished me this information was on the scene. She was at that time a ruling elder of our church, a lady by the name of Mrs. Marshall Ketchum.

Senator CURTIS. She told you it was just a piece of pipe?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Did anybody else tell you?

Reverend FRY. I believe this was corroborated by our custodian. I can't make that as a statement of fact, but it is my best recollection. Senator CURTIS. But the one person that you do recall who told you that-how do you spell her first name?

Reverend FRY. Mrs. Marshall Ketchum. Her first name is Clara. Senator CURTIS. How do you spell the last name?

Reverend FRY. K-e-t-c-h-u-m.

Senator CURTIS. Is she an official in your church?

Reverend FRY. At that time she was a ruling elder of our church. She has since, by mandatory procedures of our ecclesiastical law, been rotated off of the session. She is presently a member of our board of

deacons.

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. WILLIAM B. GRIFFIN-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. Commander, are you a member of the Chicago intelligence unit?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There seems to be on the part of Reverend Fry some serious doubts about their activities. I don't know the setup out there, but you are not in that unit?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you: Do you know Jeff Fort and the members of the Main 21? How many of them do you know personally?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I know approximately half of them personally. I know Eugene Hairston, Jeff Fort, Lamar Bell, Paul Martín, William Troop, Bernard Green, Adam Battiste, Edward Bey, and Cogwell. I would say two-thirds of them, and the rest by reputation.

The CHAIRMAN. These you named principally are the ones that have been drawing the biggest salaries there, aren't they?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You know them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Personally.

The CHAIRMAN. Personally?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.