Mr. GRIFFIN. Thunder.

The CHAIRMAN. Herbert "Thunder" Stevens?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They call him Thunder?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he shot within the last week? Is he the one who was shot a day or two ago?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think he was shot last Friday at 41st and Ellis, which is in the district north of mine.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not in your district?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does he operate in your district?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he get out of his territory? Do you know what happened?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where he was shot is also Ranger territory, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. It is also Ranger territory?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That shooting was outside your district but it is still in Ranger territory.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that shooting is not part of the statistics you have given.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. The statistics that I have given you for this. year, up until the 16th of June, are only those that are related to my district.

The CHAIRMAN. Only in your district?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This does not include killings that may have occurred over in the Disciples' district or the Englewood area. This does not include killings over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just my district.

The CHAIRMAN. Have there been a number over there, also?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, a tremendous number.

The CHAIRMAN. But you are only dealing with this area that has been involved in this Ranger operation and the area where these schools, these centers, were established for the training or educating, presumably, of these gang members.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. I might add, sir, the headquarters for the entire Ranger activity on the South Side of Chicago is in my district. and specifically in what they refer to as McCormick Place, the First Presbyterian Church.

The CHAIRMAN. They call it McCormick Place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do they call the First Presbyterian Church McCormick Place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Because of its size, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Because of its size?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know how McCormick is symbolic of size.

Senator MUNDT. There is a big auditorium in Chicago called McCormick Place.

Senator CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Curtis.

Senator CURTIS. Maybe this is already in the record, but I am not

sure.

What are the bounds of your district to which you refer? From what place to what place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. From 60th Street on the north, 76th Street on the south, Dan Wright Expressway on the west, and Lake Michigan on the east.

Senator CURTIS. Is the First Presbyterian Church in that area? Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask Mr. Fry a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator CURTIs. Mr. Fry, can you provide this committee with any evidence of any public statements you have ever made in support of the police or other law-enforcement agencies in Chicago?

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY-Resumed

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir, numerous statements. I do not have them with me. They are in my files, copies of statements that I have made and I would be very pleased to get them and to bring them to you, sir. Senator CURTIS. Did any publication ever get hold of them? Reverend FRY. I am not competent to answer. I do not know. I have, however, made many such statements.

Senator CURTIS. Have you ever testified for the prosecution any time in Chicago?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. You have?
Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. In what particular case?

Reverend FRY. It was very minor, a minor court case. Some young man-he said he was a Ranger; I really don't know because I couldn't remember him. I had seen him, maybe. I was asked to come. He had suggested that I might be an alibi witness. He had suggested that he was in the church on a certain night and that I saw him and I would vouch for the fact he was in the church.

I consulted my records and found out that I wasn't even in the church that night. I went to the court and was very pleased to tell the court I wasn't there. Therefore, I couldn't have seen him.

Senator CURTIS. That is all.

Senator MUNDT. Reverend Fry, you have heard these statistics about the increase in crime in the area of Chicago where the Blackstone Rangers hold forth with their headquarters in your church.

Your testimony to us is to the effect that you believe, and I presume you had records to show, that crime had slacked off after you got to working with them, after they got to working with the church.

Obviously, either you or the charts on the wall prepared by the Chicago Police Department in conjunction with our staff is wrong. What evidence do you have to refute these facts, which you have heard the same time our committee heard them?

Reverend FRY. Senator Mundt, I am not in possession of a proper file of statistics on a breakdown of major crimes and shootings.

However, Reverend Brazier, whom I assume will testify before you, president of the Woodlawn Organization, is fully prepared to give the proper, authentic statistical breakdown on the basis of which I have been making my claims. I have not performed this survey. This is the proper area of Mr. Brazier, not my own.

I would like Mr. Brazier to offer comment on this chart rather than myself.

Senator MUNDT. He is on the witness list and will be called in due

course.

Apparently you have talked to him about his testimony and what he is going to say.

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. But I am not prepared to talk to the details. He has informed me broadly that there has been decreases, simply decreases.

Senator MUNDT. You made the statement earlier in your testimony that crime has slacked off and that these people had a salutary effect on crime in your part of Chicago. You were basing your conclusions on facts that Reverend Brazier had?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Not that you have?
Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You are prepared to admit, then, that as far as your firsthand knowledge is concerned, you have no evidence to refute the statistics which are on the easel?

Reverend FRY. I have not performed any survey that would entitle me to a competence to address that; yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know Herbert "Thunder" Stevens?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. And I should like to tell you one thing, if I may, an anecdote. May I?

Senator MUNDT. You can tell an anecdote, I guess, but before that, I want to know whether you know he was shot last Friday.

Reverend FRY. I do not know this fact. I have heard that he was superficially wounded. That is my information.

Senator MUNDT. You haven't seen him or heard from him and you don't know?

Reverend FRY. No. But I do want to tell you this anecdote, Senator. Senator MUNDT. Is it short? If it is not too long, go ahead. Reverend FRY. It is very brief and crucial.

Senator MUNDT. Go ahead.

Reverend FRY. There was, in the beginning of this past school term, in the Kenwood area, which is not in the commander's district, around Forestville High School, a very serious disturbance.

The pupils broke most of the windows in the school, and there was very severe and hostile confrontations between the administration and the students.

All the students left the high school, were standing around the high school. There were a series of black militants who were seeking to burn down, "Let's go." And there were a series of police officers who were doing their best to contain this incident before it became conflagrative.

In the midst of this came "Thunder" Stevens. "Thunder" Stevens did not have to announce who he was. He did not have to say, "I am”

so and so. "Thunder" Stevens stood up and he advised the gathered students that they were going to die if they stayed there, and that he was going to come back in 5 minutes and he didn't want to see anyone there.

He came back in 5 minutes. There was no one there. And "Thunder" Stevens received wide acclaim in the press, wide acclaim, for this act of saving an area from possibly very serious, destructive, and costly disorder.

I point to this anecdote as a species of the sort of violence reduction. procedures that have been entered into by the Blackstone Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. That is not an anecdote, is it? Would you call that an anecdote?

Reverend FRY. I would say

The CHAIRMAN. If it is, it is a joke.

Reverend FRY. Mr. Chairman, I meant

The CHAIRMAN. You used that term.

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. And I used it in the hope that you might understand that it is illustrative of many such activities.

Senator MUNDT. I think you used the wrong word. I think you meant to use, "example."

Mr. BRACKETT. I don't think anecdote necessarily means funny, Mr. Chairman.

Reverend FRY. I did not mean to imply by the use of that word that I considered it funny. I considered it serious.

Senator MUNDT. I would assume you could give us an example of some good deed done by "Thunder" Stevens.

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir; which possibly saved the city of Chicago millions of dollars, Senator Mundt.

Senator MUNDT. That could be. I am not denying that.

I was trying to point out that you were relating a true happening and not just an anecdote, or some piece of fiction. You were giving us an example of some good he had done.

Why should they shoot a man of such high principles, who saved the city millions of dollars, the great peacemaker Stevens? Why was he shot?

Reverend FRY. I have no information about events surrounding

that.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know anything about his past record? Was he ever in jail?

Reverend FRY. I know nothing about his past record.

Senator MUNDT. He seems to have one of those mug numbers on him in the picture, but I can't tell what it means.

The CHAIRMAN. That is in the record, his background is.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know what his function is, Reverend Fry

Reverend FRY. I am not familiar; no, sir. I am prepared to give no information about it.

Senator MUNDT. You don't know if he is in the OEO program or not?

Reverend FRY. I don't know whether he was or was not involved in the program.

Senator MUNDT. The staff says he was not.

Reverend FRY. I don't know.

Senator MUNDT. Do you suppose he is too good for the group, that they don't want a man, a peacemaker like that? Here you build him all up and we find out he is not involved in the work.

Reverend FRY. I just have no knowledge of this, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You might need a replacement for Mr. Hairston. You might take a good look at Stevens. It might be an improvement. The CHAIRMAN. Commander Griffin, you made some reference to this group as approaching the Mafia. I know it is easy to use brand terms and so forth. But it is a part of the function and duty of this committee to investigate organized crime.

What do you say with respect to these Blackstone Rangers, the organization that this Main 21 dominates, controls, and administerswhat would you say with respect to whether it is engaged in organized crime? Are they organized and operating as an organization in the commission of crime?

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. WILLIAM B. GRIFFIN-Resumed

Mr. GRIFFIN. This basic structure would certainly indicate, Mr. Chairman, that the Rangers are acting in the capacity of an organized criminal element. All the factors are there.

The threats, the intimidations, the extortions-

The CHAIRMAN. You talk about the threats and intimidations, do you have any trouble with respect to trying to get evidence when you go into that community when crimes are committed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sir, there is a feeling of total fear in the Woodlawn community because of the activities of these two gang structures. The CHAIRMAN. What is it that causes the fear?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The threats, the intimidations, the extortions, the shootings, the promiscuous firing of shots at 10 or 11 o'clock at night. People don't feel safe to walk the streets.

The CHAIRMAN. They don't feel safe to walk the streets.

Are you testifying or implying--and this is a matter of judgment, maybe, to some extent, but you certainly should be in a position to know if this is in your area-is there a sense of terror, of fear, instilled into the people of that community by this organization, by its members? Mr. GRIFFIN. By its members and the members of the Disciples. The CHAIRMAN. By the two?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a condition there of fear on the part of the residents?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How do they react when you undertake to get information about crimes that are committed in that area? Do you get the cooperation of any of the leaders of these Blackstone Rangers?

Do you get the cooperation of any of them when you are investigating crime in that area?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. And there is a great reluctancy on the part of the citizens to cooperate.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. GRIFFIN. For fear of reprisal.