The CHAIRMAN. Did you testify?

Mrs. MARTIN. I testify in Hairston's case. I didn't testify with Paul Martin. But I was only testifying what my child say. When I get to my testimony, I will let you know then.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Go ahead.

Mrs. MARTIN. After they shot the man, Dennis fired the shots in the car. They all started running. They ran around to the back entrance of my house. They went up on the fourth floor. The first got there was Dennis and Marvin. Sanders said when he got into the house, him and Dancy and them, that Dennis had pulled off his jacket and his shoes, which Dennis always had a habit of pulling off his shoes.

They was sitting on the couch. A few minutes later, Eugene Hairston, known as the Bull, and the chief, came-they was walking fast. They came through the front entrance of my house.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was with Hairston?

Mrs. MARTIN. Hairston was with Lee Jackson, which is Dennis Jackson's brother, and another man, which I never knew who that other guy was.

They went in the building in 1370 East 62d Street pretty fast.

They went up there maybe about 4 or 5 minutes. My daughter was standing there. They was in such a hurry. I said, "Sarah Ann, go upstairs and see where the Bull and them go." She goes upstairs and comes back down. I says, "Was they up there?" And she said, "Yes, ma'am."

I said, "What are they doing?" She said, "Eating." I know very well they are not getting my food to eat. She said, "No, they are eating their own food. They had lunch meat, cheese, and orange juice."

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mrs. MARTIN. Marvin and Sanders testified that in a few minutes, when Bull came in, Eugene Hairston, came in the place, he asked Dennis, "Did you all handle it?" They said, "Yes."

The CHAIRMAN. Asked what?

Mrs. MARTIN. Did he handle it.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he handle it?

Mrs. MARTIN. Handle it mean did he do what he told him to do. He said, "Yes." So then Dennis said, "Man, what did we shoot him for?" Eugene Hairston replied, "Dope." He did it on account of dope.

The CHAIRMAN. He did it on account of dope?

Mrs. MARTIN. These men was coming into the hood from off of fortythird or forty-something, taking money out of the hood.

The CHAIRMAN. The hood?

Mrs. MARTIN. The hood means the neighborhood.

The CHAIRMAN. It means outsiders coming in, selling dope, and taking the money back out of the neighborhood?

Mrs. MARTIN. And taking the money back out of the hood. Bull told them to dig in. Dennis asked him: "Don't you ever ask nobody do you need any money sometime without dig in?" Bull said, "What do you need?"

He said he wanted something to eat. Bull told him, "There was food, eat that." He didn't want that. "How much do you need?" He said, "A dollar." Bull gave him one $5 bill and one $1, for the boys that was with him, which it was exactly about six boys in place. That was the dollar apiece for the killing.

The CHAIRMAN. How long after the killing was this payoff made? Mrs. MARTIN. Right about maybe about 10 minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Shortly after?

Mrs. MARTIN. About 10 minutes when Bull came up. About 10 minutes. And then after then, Eugene Hairston, Lee Jackson, and the other man came out of the building, walking pretty fast.

I asked Eugene Hairston: "You could have gave me something to eat." He said: "You can get something to eat if you want, baby." So Eugene Hairston and Lee Jackson went on 63d Street on Dorchester, and the other man went to 61st Street.

That was my testifying.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mrs. MARTIN. That was all on the killing.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's go from there. Can you tell us what you know about how the gang operates, how it influences these young boys? Can you give us any firsthand information about that?

Mrs. MARTIN. How they influence the boys?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

In other words, when they tell them to do something, what happens if they don't do it?

Mrs. MARTIN. If they don't do it, they be handled.

The CHAIRMAN. What does that mean?

Mrs. MARTIN. They will be beat up.

The CHAIRMAN. Have your boys ever been beaten up?

Mrs. MARTIN. Yes, one of them. Paul Martin hit one, Solomon, and

I told him, "Don't do that no more.'

The CHAIRMAN. You told him never to do that

boys have to pay dues?

Mrs. MARTIN. Yes, they did.

anymore. Did your

The CHAIRMAN. What happened if they didn't pay dues?
Mrs. MARTIN. They get handled. They get beat up.

The CHAIRMAN. Who furnished the money to your boys to pay dues? Mrs. MARTIN. Well, some of them got paper routes. They would get it from me and if I didn't give it to them they would walk around the house and cry and say they was going to get beat up if I didn't give them the money, so I had to take the food money and different things I had to give them money so they wouldn't get beat up.

The CHAIRMAN. You had to give them money so they wouldn't get beat up?

Mrs. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you do it more than once?

Mrs. MARTIN. Heavens, yes. I did it all the time I was over there. The CHAIRMAN. You did it all the time you were over there. Senator MUNDT. How much money are we talking about? Twentyfive or thirty-five cents?

Mrs. MARTIN. Twenty-five or fifty cents, but 25 cents and 50 cents and a dollar with eight kids is pretty bad when you don't have it. Senator MUNDT. How often was this?

Mrs. MARTIN. They would have to pay it every week.

Senator MUNDT. Every week?

Mrs. MARTIN. Every week.

Senator MUNDT. This was not a volunteer contribution on their part? This was a question of paying it or getting beat up?

Mrs. MARTIN. They would pay it or they will get beat up.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the way this gang operates, this benevolent organization?

Mrs. MARTIN. That is the way they operate.

Senator CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. Did your children ever sell anything out of your home in order to get money to turn over to the Blackstone Rangers? Mrs. MARTIN. Solomon, this this boy that got killed, the Smith, who got killed in front of the First Presbyterian Church, they all had to bring some money because Bull told them they had to have that money there.

I couldn't give everybody a dollar or two dollars to go, because there was too many. So Solomon stole Marvin's radio out of the house and sold it. Then he stole-I got a white silver wig. He stole the wig out of the house and sold that, too. And I got the wig back.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know where they would go to pay their dues?

Mrs. MARTIN. They went to the First Presbyterian Church at 64th and Kimbark.

Senator CURTIS. You made reference to someone being killed outside the church. Who was that?

Mrs. MARTIN. A boy they called "Tuboo" Smith. That is the name I know him by.

Senator CURTIS. Were your boys present when that happened or nearby?

Mrs. MARTIN. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But I know what they was doing with the money because they was trying to get it. After they stole my wig, I remember that day.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know why this boy was killed?

Mrs. MARTIN. Well, you know, when something be did over there, the Blackstone Rangers don't say the Disciples did it. They will say something. But they probably did it themselves.

Senator CURTIS. Over how long a period of time did your boys have to pay dues?

Mrs. MARTIN. 1966, when I found out that they was Rangers, it was in 1966, and 1967, until they was arrested and the police moved us away from over there.

Senator CURTIS. Did the dues vary because of age? Did the youngest ones have to pay as much as the older ones?

Mrs. MARTIN. Marvin had to pay more. The little children didn't have to pay but a quarter.

Senator CURTIS. They had to pay just a quarter?

Mrs. MARTIN. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. With respect to the paying of dues, did any of your children attend this so-called school that was operating there, that the Rangers were operating, this Federal program?

Mrs. MARTIN. No; my children was too young for that. Marvin, he left. After he came 15, he was too young, I imagine, but I didn't let them go over there.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did they go to school, your children?
Mrs. MARTIN. Marvin went to Hyde Park.

The CHAIRMAN. They went to public schools?
Mrs. MARTIN. Yes; what could they teach them?
The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mrs. MARTIN. What could they teach them?

The CHAIRMAN. You wouldn't let your children go there?

Mrs. MARTIN. How to murder? How to sell narcotics, how to murder

peoples.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that what they were teaching?

Mrs. MARTIN. What else could they teach?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know.

Mrs. MARTIN. All of them up there is killers.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mrs. MARTIN. All of them up there is murderers. What else could they teach? What could they tell anybody? What decent person would let their child go there?

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you say that? Where is the headquarters? Mrs. MARTIN. First Presbyterian Church, Reverend Fry's.

The CHAIRMAN. Reverend Fry's church.

Have you been to that church and have you seen what went on there? Mrs. MARTIN. Yes; I have.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been a question here. Have you worked with that church in some of its programs?

Mrs. MARTIN. Well, I worked with the Rangerettes, and I did something for Reverend Fry once for his OEO; I believe it was last June. The CHAIRMAN. For OEO?

Mrs. MARTIN. Last June.

Reverend FRY. July.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you do there?

Mrs. MARTIN. Mr. Smith called me up at home and told me it was an urgent meeting, that they wanted me to come. I told them I was sick, I couldn't get downstairs, and I lived on the fourth floor.

If I get down, I couldn't hardly get back up, because of this weight. So he told me they would send someone after me, but it was very important for me to come.

The CHAIRMAN. Reverend Fry sent for you?

Mrs. MARTIN. Mr. Smith. That is one of the men who works over there. He is supposed to be a gym teacher.

The CHAIRMAN. A what?

Mrs. MARTIN. He is supposed to be a gym teacher.

Right, Reverend Fry?

The CHAIRMAN. At the church?

Mrs. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What does he do over there?

Reverend FRY. He is head teacher for our Excluded Child School. The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mrs. MARTIN. Anyway, after we got there we went upstairs by Reverend Fry's office, in a big room. He got all the kids' mothers. They was sent notes that we had to be there whether we liked it or not, because the children brought notes and I didn't know the note until Mr. Smith called me. But all the children had notes.

I told my kids I wasn't going. They said I had to go, for me to go anyway. I didn't throw the note away after the kids went outside. Mr. Smith called me and asked me to come. So we went over there.

We got in the room. They was some ladies coming there concerned about the OEO. They was telling Reverend Fry and the peoples that at the First Presbyterian Church that they wasn't using the funds or the money right in that church.

The CHAIRMAN. The mothers were telling the Reverend Fry they weren't using the money right?

Mrs. MARTIN. Not the mothers. The mothers couldn't afford to tell Reverend Fry that because they would have been beat up anyway because the people who was there was Blackstone Rangers' mothers, so they couldn't say nothing. You can't say nothing to Reverend Fry. You have to respect him because he is Blackstone Rangers' minister. You can't do that.

So these peoples was talking and said that Reverend Fry wasn't giving the children the trips that they should have. They was not using the money right. So we set up there and on and on about that. A friend of mine was with me, and while we was there at this meeting he got drunk.

The CHAIRMAN. On what?

Mrs. MARTIN. On gin.

The CHAIRMAN. On gin?

Mrs. MARTIN. In the First Presbyterian Church. He was drunk as he wants to be, when we got ready to go.

So Reverend Fry, we got together, we was going to make a good appearance before Miss Talbot, downtown.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is she?

Mrs. MARTIN. She is the one who stopped the funds, these OEO funds, if you don't do right. By investigating that church, she was going to stop the funds. We decided what we was going to do. We was going to get all the mothers to go down there and pretend we was really interested. We was dumb, we didn't know. We thought we was doing right.

We went down there. I was the speaker for it. I was the dumbest of all. I was the TV announcer. They told me I was doing a big thing.

I went over there, running off at the mouth. When we got there, channel 2 was there, channel 5. I didn't expect that, but they was in front of the building. All kinds of newspaper peoples was there.

Then Reverend Fry had a big bus come up in front of the church to pick up the mothers and get them down there. So the mothers went. I didn't like busses, so they took me in a car. I thought I was really into something.

We goes there and I tell this lady about excluded children in the Headstart and about I didn't care about the teachers. Fire the teachers, I said, but please give the kids a start because the First Church of Presbyterie is the only place our children can go, because I have a child in the excluded program.

The CHAIRMAN. You did want the program to go on?

Mrs. MARTIN. Of course I did, but I didn't know why. I had to do it, whether I liked it or not, because if I didn't I would have been handled, too. So I did it.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

So you helped out in that.

Had you had occasion to be in the church frequently?