I have never in my life talked to Mr. William Seltzer, on the telephone or face to face. I would like also to clarify the record and point out that Mr. Seltzer was not our lawyer; that we made extensive use of the good offices of the Legal Aid Bureau, and this was one such instance. Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I would greatly appreciate being notified when the Chair is ready to call Dr. Zimmerman. I must report at once to the Education Subcommittee, which is marking up a bill. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will try to hear him this evening. Senator CURTIS. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Curtis. Senator CURTIS. Did I understand you to say that you requested an investigation? Reverend FRY. I said I would welcome an investigation, one that has been proposed by Senator Javits. Senator CURTIS. Did you write an article for the April 15, 1968, edition of a publication called "Christianity in Crisis"? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. Referring to Mayor Daley and the Democratic Convention which will convene, it says: He got the convention for his city because his local convention-oriented businesses were demanding it. He had to promise peace in order to get it. He had to put his trustworthiness on the line. The black community sees clearly that Daley's enormous national prestige is composed of his ability to deliver votes and get dependable, down the line performance from his ward organizations. If black people can contribute to wrecking the convention, they see they can partially wreck Daley's national prestige. This is their only remaining avenue of communication. Perhaps he will then listen. What did you mean by "This is their only remaining avenue of communication"? Reverend FRY. It is my opinion, Senator Curtis, which I am entitled to as one citizen of Chicago, that the black community has not been sufficiently and organically represented in the legislative and administrative procedures of the city of Chicago. Consequently, they live in very real and very daily suppression and repression. That their one avenue, then, of gaining their way into genuine participation in the political life of Chicago is by in some way discrediting Mayor Daley. Senator CURTIS. In other words, you are suggesting this. Reverend FRY. No, sir. The first part of the final sentence that you quoted, I believe, is supported by the common conversation and knowledge in general Chicago black community during the time before President Johnson made his announcement withdrawing from the campaign. There was continued talk throughout the black community of Chicago of very deep and provocative violence centered around the convention. I do not advocate that, Senator Curtis, and did not at that time. Senator CURTIS. But you have, here in this hearing room, rather categorically taken the position against the police, have you not? Reverend FRY. No, sir. I should like the record to be clear, that I am not against the police. I am not against the law enforcement procedures of the city of Chicago, or any other city; that I am specifically concerned to point out before this committee the activities of one specific unit within the Chicago Police Department, and not all of its activities, only some of its activities. And I would like to be just that precise, Mr. Curtis. Senator CURTIS. You have advocated doing away with the Gang Intelligence Unit. Reverend FRY. That is the unit I am talking about. Senator CURTIS. And you disavow the testimony of the police officers who have testified here? Reverend FRY. If you could question me specifically, I have not yet been asked to disavow it. Senator CURTIS. In other words, you do not dispute what the police officers have said here at this hearing? Mr. BRACKETT. Would you identify those police officers, Senator Curtis? Senator CURTIS. You have been right here. There was a Mr. Moore. Mr. BRACKETT. Mr. Moore is not a police officer. He is warden of the county jail. Senator CURTIS. Warden of the county jail, yes. Do you accept Mr. Moore's testimony as truthful and correct? Reverend FRY. We had such colloquy yesterday, Senator Curtis, in which you asked me these questions, and I made answer that in reference to one specific part of Warden Moore's testimony, I wished to enter a demurrer, which I did. Senator CURTIS. How about Commander Griffin? Reverend FRY. I would like to make a comment on one portion of Commander Griffin's testimony before you this morning. Commander Griffin reported an incident just before Christmas in 1967, and whereas he did not directly say it, nonetheless, there was a fair implication, from which fair and reasonable men might infer that this was the kind of extortion which has been alleged to have occurred by other witnesses. I would like to specifically put down that kind of implication in order that this inference not be drawn. This was a part of a total effort on the part of the First Presbyterian Church, and the chairman of that effort was Mrs. Paul Gebhardt, who is also in this room, in which well over $2,000 was collected from good and high Christian people throughout metropolitan Chicago, and well over 200 well-stocked Christmas baskets were arranged and spread through the community to people who were very hungry. Now, the Blackstone Rangers participated as a part of that effort, and in accordance with their part, they sought money from merchants, and they were apparently not very successful, because they only had $33. Nonetheless, they were participating under the direction of Mrs. Paul Gebhardt, who was the general executive chairman of the whole Christmas basket campaign. It could be inferred from Commander Griffin's testimony that this was extortion, and I would like to clarify the record. It was not extortion. It was seeking money for people who otherwise might have nothing to eat on Christmas. (At this point, Senator Javits left the hearing room.) Senator CURTIS. You regard the Blackstone Rangers not as a lawless gang that terrorizes people, but, rather, as a worthwhile, positive organization. Is that your position? Reverend FRY. My position is that the Blackstone Rangers is a community organization in the sense that it truly has risen out of the concrete. It is there. The people had needs for which this organization was responsive. Until 1965 it was characterized by secretiveness and by very real and extensive violence, I am told, inasmuch as I only came to Chicago in 1965. I have, however, in the time I have been in Chicago, witnessed the steady evolution and maturity and responsibility of this organization, which does not mean that now they are violence-free, that now that there are no criminals, or anything remotely like that. I should not like to contest these kinds of materials. I would rather say that their direction is out of deep-rooted criminality, which is indigenous not only to this, but to all ghettos, that they are in a different direction, that they genuinely are trying to fit in a new and creative way into the pattern of Woodlawn life. Senator CURTIS. Reverend Fry, do you deny that they recruit their members by fear, violence, and intimidation? Reverend FRY. I have no knowledge of that, Senator Curtis. Reverend FRY. I have heard many allegations that this is true. I do not know it to be a fact, or not to be a fact. Of my personal knowledge, I have never seen a Blackstone Ranger recruit another young man by the use of force and violence. Senator CURTIS. Do you deny that they are required to pay dues or suffer punishment? Reverend FRY. I have testified before that the expert testimony can be given here by Mr. LaPaglia, who knows, in his intimate relationships, much more than I do. But he has told me that the dues system, which was not voluntary, was in operation until sometime in the fall of 1966. Thereafter, it was discontinued, and has now been reinstated under a voluntary basis. Mr. LaPaglia has much more exact testimony on this matter. I am simply reflecting what he has told me. Senator CURTIS. Mr. Fry, the thing that disturbs me is that by your own statements you have made this a major project of the church, spending some $88,000. Yet, when you are asked any question that refers to any unlawful act or wrongdoing or violence or intimidation by the Rangers, you say you are not qualified to say. It seems to me that you ought to know those folks. Mr. BRACKETT. I think the record will show that he has said he has no direct knowledge of it. That is a very responsive answer. Senator CURTIS. I understand, and I understand that he is collecting money from the public. He spent $88,000 on a project, besides the Government money going in there. My point is that he ought to have direct knowledge. Reverend FRY. Senator Curtis, I would like to be responsive to that question, in this way: Perhaps you are unaware of the complexity and scope of the community-serving ministry of the Presbyterian Church. I am the chief administrator of a large and complex organization. I do not have intimate knowledge of the operations of any of these programs, inasmuch as my principal role is that of an administrator. We do have an excellent Headstart program. We have a widely acclaimed excluded child program. Senator CURTIS. Not only did you spend $88,000 of money collected for the teen education, but Government money has gone in there, and you have put up bail 200 times. I don't know how much you have spent for lawyers. I say that as a representative of the Presbyterian Church, you ought to know these answers Mr. BRACKETT. Senator Curtis Senator CURTIS. Just a minute. That you ought to know these answers from your first-hand knowledge. Mr. BRACKETT. He has denied knowing that they exist. You want him to prove a negative. That is impossible. Senator CURTIS. I know he has denied every allegation of misdoing on the part of the Rangers. You still contend that Hairston should not have been convicted. Is that correct? Reverend FRY. As I recall, I had tried to be responsive a few minutes ago to you, by saying that this organization is not entirely now free of violence. I just responded to you, sir, in that way. Senator CURTIS. Do you still believe that Hairston is innocent? Reverend FRY. It is my personal opinion, having been in the court room, having been in extensive conversation with one of the most expert defense attorneys in the entire city of Chicago, Mr. George Cotsirilos that he is not only innocent, but that his appeal will be honored, and that this verdict against Mr. Hairston will be overthrown. Senator CURTIS. I have listened carefully to all you had to say all through these days, and you have consistently denied every allegation of wrongdoing, minor or major, on the part of the street gang known as the Blackstone Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. I just want to ask you one question, and then we have to go and vote. This excerpt that Senator Curtis read you from your own document, printed sometime this year, says: The black community sees clearly that Daley's enormous national prestige is composed of his ability to deliver votes and get dependable, down the line performance from his ward organizations. Assuming that is true, let's take the next sentence: If black people can contribute to wrecking the conventionand that is the Democratic National ConventionIf they can wreck it. What do you mean by "wreck it"? Reverend FRY. I was using an expression, Mr. Chairman, that was common to the general parlance. The CHAIRMAN. It has a common meaning, to wreck something, doesn't it? Reverend FRY. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Disrupt it, tear it up. Is that what you meant? Reverend FRY. Those are adequate synonyms. The CHAIRMAN (reading). If black people can contribute to wrecking the convention, they see they can partially wreck Daley's national prestige. That means wreck his prestige, too? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN (continuing). This is their only remaining avenue of communication. Perhaps then he will listen. Does that not suggest that it be done, so he will listen? Didn't you mean to imply that it ought to be wrecked, so you could get him to listen? Reverend FRY. This article, Mr. Chairman, in its entirety, was meant more to be a report than anything else. I think that is an adequate report of the climate. The CHAIRMAN. That is a good report, to plant in the minds of the Blackstone Rangers and others, the idea of wrecking the convention; don't you think so? Reverend FRY. The Blackstone Rangers do not read "Christianity in Crisis," Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. What was that? Reverend FRY. I was suggesting, Mr. Chairman, that the Blackstone Rangers do not read, ordinarily, "Christianity in Crisis." The CHAIRMAN. Do not ordinarily read? That has been demonstrated up there by some of your teachers. The committee will stand in recess for a few minutes. (The committee recessed at 4:08 p.m., with the following present: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.) (The committee reconvened at 4:28 p.m., with the following present: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.) The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. We will resume the questioning of the Reverend in a few minutes on these points. I was just asking about the wrecking of the Democratic convention. I am not sure I am going. I had some doubts about it before. I don't know how much influence this has had. I can't interpret what you have said there in any other way than a written suggestion calculated to inflame the minds of the black people up there, that they ought to undertake to wreck the convention, so as to get Daley to listen to them thereafter. Have you any other interpretation of it? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What is your interpretation? Reverend FRY. My interpretation, Mr. Chairman, is that I was trying to reflect the presence of a good deal of such inflammatory feelings |