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Mr. PIERSON. Most assuredly.
Senator MTNDT. One additional witness?
Mr. PIERSON. No, sir.
Senator MUNDT. Several additional informants, or quite a few?
Mr. PIERSON. Quite a few.

Senator MUNDT. That is a very damning piece of testimony, and certainly we are going to have to explore that against the testimony of Reverend Fry.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any doubt at all that these Blackstone Rangers, particularly a large number of those who appear on the chart-do you have any doubt whatsoever that they will carry out their threats to kill?

Mr. PIERSON. No, sir; I have no doubt that they will carry out their threats, other than we will do our utmost to prevent that.

The CHAIRMAN. Do what?

Mr. PIERson. That the office of the State's attorney, as well as the Chicago Police Department, will do our utmost to prevent that.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand. But I am talking about when they make their threats to Mrs. Martin, to mothers, to others, do you have any doubt of their scruples about carrying out those threats, even to the point of murder?

Mr. PIERSON. No, sir; I have no doubt, whatsoever.

The CHAIRMAN. She testified that children were coming home beaten up, and they would get beatings if they didn't get up the dues, and so forth.

Do you have any doubt that this man Fort and the man Hairston used those tactics to exercise control over the membership of the Blackstone Rangers ?

Mr. PIERSON. No doubt at all. We have received numerous complaints to this effect.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have it from mothers of the children?
Mr. Pierson. Yes, we have.
The CHAIRMAN. Are they in fear to testify?
Mr. PIERSON. Yes.

In fact, quite recently, within the last 3 days, prior to my coming to Washington, I had received a complaint from a mother that her child was beaten while on his way to school because he did not pay dues to the Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. Because he had not what?
Mr. PIERSON. Paid dues to the Blackstone Rangers.
The CHAIRMAN. Beaten because he had not paid dues.
Do you know how old the child was?

Mr. PIERSON. No, sir. I had not had the opportunity to pursue that further, inasmuch as our office primarily is dealing with the pending indictments and prosecutions that we have at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?
Senator Mundt. One other question, Mr. Chairman.
I call your attention, Mr. Pierson, to the top of the next page.

You say:

Paul Martin, one of the top leaders of the Blackstone Rangers and their religious leader, has been arrested on two occasions for the possession of narcotics. His most recent arrest on narcotics took place on April 22, 1968, in Chicago. His case is still pending. What do you suppose that means, spiritual leader?

85-779—68-pt. 10— 14

It seems to me I could go along with his nickname of Crazy Paul, but to think of a man who is a narcotics peddler, or narcotics user, as being a spiritual leader for youngsters 8, 10, 12, 14 years of age, is an appalling reversion to the Dark Ages.

If that is happening in Chicago, even if true, it becomes unbelievable.

Do you know this Paul Martin?
Mr. PIERSON. Yes, sir, I do.

Senator MUNDT. What do you think they mean, when they say spiritual leader, or religious leader? Does that mean he has been selected by somebody to be that?

Mr. PIERSON. No, he claims that, himself. He is a self-proclaimed spiritual leader of the Blackstone Rangers.

Senator MUNDT. Would you be happy to have a son of yours come under his spiritual influence?

Mr. PIERSON. No, sir.
Senator MUNDT. It is astounding.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. BRACKETT. Mr. Chairman, if you would could we establish what stores were burned during the spring period in the Woodlawn area of Chicago?

I think he testified there were stores burned when Blackstone Rang. ers fingered the stores to be burned.

The CHAIRMAN. You may submit some documentary testimony about stores burned out there in connection with your testimony.

Mr. PIERSON. All right, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Or submit a partial list of it now.
Mr. BRACKETT. Can he do it now, or is he unable to do it?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't imagine you expect him to name them at the moment.

Can you name some of them?

Mr. PIERSON. My statement, Senator, was after the death of Martin Luther King, that there had been rioting in the city of Chicago, to include burning and destroying of merchant's stores.

I am not specifically aware of what stores were burned in the Woodlawn area, as predominantly the majority of the burning took place on the West Side of Chicago.

However, the Chicago Fire Department did respond to numerous calls of fires of merchants stores in the Woodlawn area. Specifically, what stores were destroyed, I am not able to list at this moment.

I
The CHAIRMAN. You can get up some information on that?
Mr. PIERSON. Yes, sir.
(The information supplied follows:)

OFFICE OF THE STATE'S ATTORNEY,

COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS,

Chicago, Ill., August 6, 1968. Mr. LAVERN DUFFY, Old Senate Building, Room 101, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. DUFFY: Attached is a report containing information obtained from the Chicago Fire Department relative to fires responded to by the Chicago Fire Department during the April riot here in Chicago.

Additional information has been requested as this list is only the response of one truck company and additional companies were involved in the fires during the riot. As soon as this information is made available it will be forwarded to you immediately. Very truly yours,

BOB PIERSON.

CALLS RECEIVED BY CHICAGO FIRE DEPARTMENT (EITHER BY BOX OR PHONE) FROM SOUTH SIDE DURING APRIL

1968 RIOT

Date and time

Address

Cause

Time spent at scene (minutes)

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Apr. 5, 1968, 7:43... 1368 East 62d St..
Apr. 5, 1968, 9:45... 6714 Cottage Grove.
Apr. 6, 1968, 12:08.. 6750 Stony Island.
Apr. 6, 1968, 12:18.. 6318 Drexel.
Apr. 6, 1968, 12:52.. 7012 Stony Island.
Apr. 6, 1968, 2:20.. 1217 East 630 St.
Apr. 6, 1968, 6:55. 929 East 63d St..
Apr. 7, 1968, 12:55.. 6325 Ingleside.
Apr. 7, 1968, 2:55... 851 East 630 St.
Apr. 7, 1968, 8:45. 805 East Marquette.
Apr. 5, 1968, 6:40. 6135 Eberhardt.
Apr. 5, 1968, 9:45. 65th and Maryland.
Apr. 5, 1968, 9:06

do
Apr. 5, 1968, 9:45 6074 Stony Island
Apr. 5, 1968, 11:20.. Marquette-Dorchester.
Apr. 5, 1968, 10:15... 6426 St. Lawrence..
Apr. 5, 1968, 9:58. 57th and Cornell..
Apr. 5, 1968, 10:13... 1034 East 65th St.
Apr. 6, 1968, 12:07..- 6800 Stony Island
Apr. 6, 1968, 12:59... 7012 Stony Island
Apr. 6, 1968, 8:28.. 62d and Ingleside (school).
Apr. 6, 1968, 6:54. 1031 East 63d (furniture).
Apr. 6, 1968, 2:00 1217 East 63d.
Apr. 6, 1968, 1:35 1520 East 63d.
Apr. 6, 1968, 12:35. 1034 East 65th.
Apr. 6, 1968, 9:13

do
Apr. 7, 1968, 12:03... 6233 Cottage Grove (furniture).
Apr. 7, 1968, 5:50 6450 Evans (garage).
Apr. 7, 1968, 2:55. 852 East 63d St. (art theater).
Apr. 7, 1968, 1:00 63d and St. Lawrence.
Apr. 7, 1968, 1:55 6312 Greenwood
Apr. 7, 1968, 2:20. 65th and Greenwood.

26 36 68. (1) 20. 22 (). )

Unknown.
Molotov cocktail.

Do.
Fire set under stairs.
Molotov cocktail.
Rags.
Auto.
Molotov cocktail.

Do.
Unknown.
Vandalism.
Unknown
Molotov cocktail.
Malicious mischief.
Molotov cocktail.

Do.

Do.
Vandalism.

Do.
Molotov cocktail.
Vandalism.
Molotov cocktail.

1 Unknown.
Note: Numerous other calls not recorded due to chaotic conditions caused by rioters (Woodlawn area).

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask George Rose a few questions.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE ROSE-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. You testified a few days ago, when Reverend Fry was present,

Incidentally, Mr. Pierson, you are free to return to your home. Mr. PIERSON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. You testified at some length about the operation of the Blackstone Rangers, of which you were a member, of which you were third in command, or third in authority from the top.

In your testimony, you testified pertaining to Reverend Fry, with respect to his knowing about the things that went on in the church, about which you testified, as I remember, such as storing guns and ammunition and narcotics.

What else did you testify to along that line!

Mr. Rose. Extortion, and Reverend Fry's knowledge that we did smoke in his church.

The CHAIRMAN. He knew that you smoked in the church!
Mr. Rose. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And that you packaged up the marihuana there?
Mr. Rose. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. And that he knew the ammunition was there?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And that the guns were stashed there?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you look at him and tell me under oath whether you told the truth about it?

He says it is not true. I think he is entitled to be confronted by his accusers. They say he is.

Mr. BRACKETT. This is hardly the confrontation called for in the Constitution, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to get a little impatient. I think I have been fair to you. I will not make one or two more warnings. I hope you appreciate that.

I think I have a right to conduct this investigation. I will treat you courteously, and I expect the same in return.

Answer the question.

Mr. Rose. Reverend Fry called me a malicious liar as far as my testimony goes.

I will look at the Reverend Fry right now and say he is the one who is a malicious liar.

Reverend Fry knows we smoked marihuana in the church. He knew about the guns and the ammunition, and all the rest of my testimony, he knew about.

As for the raids on the church, the first raid, he wasn't there. He was not there. I wasn't talking about those, though. I was talking about other times, when police officers

The CHAIRMAN. He said: The police have also several times entered our church in smaller numbers, which I considered to be unwarranted invasion.

Are those the times you are talking about?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.
(At this point, Senator Javits entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Rose. There was a time when a number of us were up on the third floor in a small office by the gym, smoking, and Reverend Fry came in and said:

The blue boys will be here in a few minutes. Clean up. Get rid of whatever you have left.

He said he never knew that we smoked in the church.

Other times, we would be in the basement, smoking, and he would come down and tell us to go upstairs, so we could open the windows, because the smell is very strong, and there were no windows in the basement that could be opened to let air in and blow the smoke out.

If anybody came down there, you could smell it very well.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything further?
Senator MUNDT. Do you know Paul Martin?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.

Senator Mundt. Maybe you can shed some light on what the title "spiritual leader” means, what his function was, and whether, in fact, he was indeed a young religious leader trying to bring about better habits of behavior on the part of the young men coming into Reverend Fry's church.

it was.

Mr. Rose. He was not my spiritual leader. He believed in the African faith. He always preached this, about the black man being the greatest thing on earth, and the strongest, the most powerful, and that one day we would rule the world, and the time was near at hand.

He used to walk around with one of Reverend Fry's robes on. He used to walk around the street with this on, an ankle-length robe, that he had gathered from Reverend Fry's office.

He was always high. He is just like his name. He is just nuts. He wasn't my spiritual leader.

Senator MUNDT. Crazy Paul—you think that identified him better than calling him an assistant pastor?

Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDr. As you describe him, I would think of him more in terms of a political leader, or an agitator, than a spiritual leader.

Mr. Rose. He leaned more toward the Nationalist movements. He was more of a Nationalist than he was a Blackstone Ranger.

Senator MUNDT. Do you think he had a good impact on the youth with whom he came in contact ?

Mr. Rose. He got a strong impact on them. I don't know how good

Senator Mundt. If you had a family, would you be happy to have one of your sons come under his spiritual influence?

Mr. Rose. No, sir.
Senator MUNDT. You would not!
Mr. Rose. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You would rather have them go to a Sunday school some place?

Mr. Rose. Yes: I would.
Senator MUNDT. I think you are probably right.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions of this witness?
Senator Javits. Yes; I have some questions, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Javits.

Senator Javits. Mr. Rose, I understand that there is a direct question between you and the Reverend Fry, in which you say that on one occasion—if this is a fact, please identify the occasion—that he passed a message to you which you were to pass on to others, some others, which would relate to the killing of an individual.

Did you give such testimony?

Mr. Rose. Not exactly. I wasn't to pass it on to anyone else. I was to

Senator Javits. What do you say was the message he gave you in this regard ?

Mr. Rose. That the president, Eugene Hairston, wanted me to take out Jimmy Straughter.

Senator Javits. He denies that. The Reverend Fry denies that. Do you still persist in your testimony, notwithstanding his denial?

Mr. Rose. There were three others present, sir.
Senator Javits. Who were there? Can you name them?
Mr. Rose. Edward Bev, Chuck LaPaglia, Anne Schwalbach.
Senator JAVITS. That is two.
Mr. Rose. Three. Edward Bey
Senator JAVITS. All right.

Then you also testified that the Reverend Fry collected guns for the Rangers. Did you make any such testimony?

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