Senator MUNDT. We have the names and pictures up there. Tell us which three those were.

Reverend FRY. I am trying to remember. I want to be accurate.

I can only remember two. One of the young ones was A. D. McChristian.

Senator MUNDT. Who was the other one?

Reverend FRY. I am very tired.

There are two other names, very well-known names, but I can't put them together.

Senator MUNDT. You said a moment ago you could remember two of the three.

Reverend FRY. As I wrote his name down, I began to wonder was it really.

Senator MUNDT. How long ago did this happen?

Reverend FRY. Essentially a month ago.

Senator MUNDT. A month ago?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Has Mr. McChristian been tried on the charge yet, or not?

Reverend FRY. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. The case is pending?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. That is all.

Senator CURTIS. Have you ever been interviewed in Chicago by any staff members of this committee?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Was that before or after you refused bond to Mr. McChristian?

Reverend FRY. It would have had to have been after.

I was interviewed after. As I remember, this was about a month ago, and as I recall, I was interviewed by Mr. Walsh 2 weeks ago, about.

Senator CURTIS. Thank you.

Senator JAVITS. Reverend Fry, do you have anything to do with the grant which was made by the Office of Economic Opportunity which affected these Blackstone Rangers?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir; I have been related to that in various ways. Senator JAVITS. In what way?

Reverend FRY. In the first way, I was a member of the advisory board which made the central decisions affecting the policy of the program. And I was related further by the fact that we leased our church for the use as a third-floor study center.

And I was related as a friend and supporter of the program throughout its entire year, and very often talked with the Reverend Brazier, Mr. Gibbs, and various of the professionals, particularly Sol Heiss in relation to the actual program as it functioned.

Senator JAVITS. You knew very well how dangerous these young men were, didn't you?

Reverend FRY. I knew we were not dealing with a Boy Scout group. Senator JAVITS. Then why did you participate in the active way that you did?

Reverend FRY. It was our feeling and one that I hold personally that the only opportunity we were going to have to reach the hard

core problems of unemployment in the Woodlawn area was by making creative and positive use of the youth organizations themselves in order to inspire and motivate these young men to go into productive, interesting, healthy, and noncriminal lives.

Senator JAVITS. But now that you have had this experience, what do you say about this point of view? Do you still have it?"

Reverend FRY. I have this point of view and it has been reinforced. I have urged many times that this program be refunded. I still hope that that will in fact happen.

Senator JAVITS. So you are not dismayed by what has taken place at this hearing?

Reverend FRY. I am not dismayed, except dismayed at the unwillingness of certain senior administrators to simply refund the program on the spot.

Senator JAVITS. I mean you are not dismayed by your personal experience? You haven't changed your view by virtue of the experience which you have just been through?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. The experience we have been through has demonstrated, if anything, the great need of the project.

Senator JAVITS. I am talking about your experience in this hearing. Reverend FRY. That is my experience.

Senator JAVITS. It has been a pretty rough hearing, hasn't it, for you?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator JAVITS. And you still feel the same way you did before? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You were here when Annabelle Martin was testifying, were you not, at the table?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Do you recall her testimony at the time she went down with a group of Ranger mothers to make an appeal to some OEO official that had been questioning the advisability of funding the program, or were going to reduce portions of it?

She went down to make the plea, along with you, I guess, and mothers of the Rangers, saying, "This was a good deal, keep on paying it."

Was that part of her testimony true?

Reverend FRY. I would rather, if I may, simply tell you my knowledge of that whole event. May I, briefly?

Senator MUNDT. Yes. I will ask you the specific question and you can answer any way you want.

Was she, in fact, the spokesman for the group?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. On this particular occasion, the excluded child program staff was deeply concerned at a potential cutback that would greatly reduce our whole educational facility. Therefore, the parents were concerned. In cooperation with the faculty they decided they would go downtown and appraise senior administrators in CCUO of their esteem and regard for the school, and their concern.

Mrs. Martin was one of these parents. She did act as a spokesman for that group and conducted herself quite successfully before Mrs. Talbot.

Senator MUNDT. Did she volunteer to be the spokesman, or did you appoint her as spokesman?

85-779-68-pt. 10-15

Reverend FRY. I was not involved in that particular proceeding. As I indicated at the beginning of my remarks, the faculty of the school was working on this project, not me myself.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know or have information as to how she got to be the spokesman? Did she volunteer? She gave the indication that she didn't really intend to be the spokesman, but she got placed into that position.

Reverend FRY. I have not questioned the faculty specifically on that. I would prefer to do that before I answer.

Senator MUNDT. You don't recall from your present knowledge? Reverend FRY. I was not in the meeting where that decision was made.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the other man you are trying to think of Melvin Bailey?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. That is two.

The CHAIRMAN. Melvin Bailey and McChristian, and another one who is not a member of the Main 21, were in jail on charges of attempted murder, were they not?

Reverend FRY. Í have forgotten exactly what the charges were, but they were very serious charges.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know about these things when you put up the bail money, what the charges are, usually?

Reverend FRY. I usually am told; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it a fact within your knowledge that the next day after Hairston got out of jail, after his conviction, that he went down there and planked down $7,500 to get McChristian out of jail? Reverend FRY. I do not know that for a fact.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you heard that?

Reverend FRY. I heard that.

The CHAIRMAN. We understand that to be a fact.

Reverend FRY. I do not know it for a fact.

The CHAIRMAN. Where would Hairston get that money?

Reverend FRY. I am not competent to say that he had the money. The CHAIRMAN. You are not competent to say that he had the money?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. I do not know that.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we can produce a witness for this.

TESTIMONY OF WINSTON MOORE-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. You have been previously sworn?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the testimony about McChristian and Bailey and Eugene Hairston. Do you know when Eugene got out of jail? You are the jailer, aren't you?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know when he got out of jail?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. I brought the jail records.

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever the records show.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Were McChristian and Melvin Bailey, two of those

on the chart, in jail at the time?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. All three of them were in jail.

Senator MUNDT. Who was the third one?

Mr. MOORE. D-i-n-k-i-n-s.

The CHAIRMAN. Is he on the chart? He is not on this chart.

Mr. MOORE. No; but he should be.

The CHAIRMAN. He is not one of the Main 21?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, he is.

The CHAIRMAN. He is?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But he is not on the chart?

Mr. MOORE. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Somehow we left him off. Do you know he is one of the Main 21?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You know that?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. In fact, I could give you how he got in jail. It was during Eugene Hairston's trial. We happened to go over to the courtroom and in the back of the courtroom we found Dale Barksdale beating the daylights out of Jeff Fort. So we broke up the fight and took them to the county jail. When Hairston came back to court, they were talking. LaPaglia and Schwalbach, I guess that is her name, started beating on the door of the jail, and saying that Rangers and Disciples were fighting outside.

Mr. DUFFY. There is a pending indictment on that right now; is there not?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. DUFFY. We shouldn't discuss the merits of the case.

Mr. MOORE. This is just a fight. It has nothing to do with the shooting. But as a result of what happened this day, later on, the next morning, A. D. McChristian, Melvin Bailey, who is also known as Neptune, and Dinkins, came through on the new, which means they came through as new prisoners with $50,000 bond on each. The day after Eugene Hairston was released, Jeff Fort came into the jail and he said he was going to get their bond reduced so that he could get them out. He wanted to talk to Melvin Bailey. I asked him why. I asked him why he wanted to talk to Melvin Bailey and he said he was going to put them in charge of all the Rangers in the county jail since Eugene Hairston had been let out.

The CHAIRMAN. Put him in what?

Mr. MOORE. In charge of all the Rangers in the county jail.

The CHAIRMAN. They were going to have someone over them in jail? Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. MOORE. So the next day Eugene Hairston came back-I think it was a Friday; it was a Friday-saying he had gotten the bonds reduced and had paid the bond and was waiting for them.

When Eugene left the county jail that Friday, he had $540. We gave him a $500 check and the rest in cash.

The CHAIRMAN. He had that much coming to him when you had custody of him in jail?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. He did not cash this check for $500 when he came back.

The CHAIRMAN. So he came back the next day with what?

Mr. MOORE. With $7,500.

The CHAIRMAN. In cash?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. They don't take checks.

The CHAIRMAN. They don't take checks?
Mr. MOORE. No.

The CHAIRMAN. He was able to get which one out?
Mr. MOORE. All three of them.

The CHAIRMAN. He got all three out for $7,500?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?
He got it reduced from $50,000 to $25,000?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know how that happened?

Mr. MOORE. I have been trying to find that out myself. In the first place, I have been trying to find out how Eugene Hairston, and he himself owes me two assaults in the county jail, is out on $5,000 bond. The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand you.

Mr. MOORE. Eugene Hairston has three convictions for solicitation for murder.

The CHAIRMAN. Already?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. That is not all. He owes two charges for assault and battery in the county jail.

The CHAIRMAN. While in jail?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he beating up somebody there?

Mr. MOORE. According to the indictment, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. According to the indictment?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Has he been convicted on those?
Mr. MOORE. No. He has been indicted.

The CHAIRMAN. Those are pending?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You said there were two other counts for soliciting

to murder?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. He has been convicted on those?

Mr. MOORE. But he is out on a $5,000 bond.

The CHAIRMAN. On the other two?

Mr. MOORE. On the three charges.

The CHAIRMAN. He has been convicted on one?

Mr. MOORE. Three. He has been convicted on three charges of solicitation for murder.

The CHAIRMAN. There were three separate charges in this one trial? Is that what you are saying?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And he was convicted on all three of them?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand.

He wasn't convicted on other incidents?

Mr. MOORE. No. He has two other charges pending. He is out on bond on two other charges, in addition to this conviction.

Senator MUNDT. I am curious to know why they thought they had to have a Ranger leader in charge of the inmates of the county jail. What would be the maximum number of Rangers who would be in the county jail at one time?