Mr. MOORE. Well, they have quite a few. In fact, we have one tier where we have 13-, 14-, 15-, and 16-year-old boys. We have a total of 72 of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Rangers?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. At least they say they are Rangers. If a boy is in the county jail under 17, it means that he is in there for a very serious offense, either murder, attempted murder, or rape. Otherwise he would be in the home where juveniles are.

Senator MUNDT. Would 72 be the maximum you have in jail?

Mr. MOORE. NO. We have 72 on one tier and we have approximately 35 on another tier.

Senator MUNDT. So you had about 100 Rangers in jail at one time? Mr. MOORE. Well, when I came there, they say they had more. Senator MUNDT. They had more?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. How many more?

Mr. MOORE. I don't know. I don't know of anything in there but inmates.

There is another thing I want to make straight on the records. On Good Friday of this year, Reverend Fry was trying to get a special pass. He was inside the jail at the counter to get a special pass. I asked him why he wanted a special pass. He said to see Eugene Hairston. He hadn't seen him since he has been in the jail. He missed seeing him before Christmas. I said, "What is your reason for seeing him?"

He said, "I am his pastor and his friend."

I said, "You are not his pastor."

He got a little indignant and when I threatened to throw him out of the jail bodily, he finally left. After he left, he wrote a letter to Reverend McCree, of the Church Federation-he is the president of the Church Federation of Chicago-demanding that I let him in to see Eugene Hairston. I still didn't let him in.

McCree in turn wrote a letter to Richard Ogalvy, Sheriff Woods, who is my boss, and to Father Taylor. In fact, they even went down to see Sheriff Woods. He still didn't get in the county jail.

The CHAIRMAN. Why don't they let him in there?

Mr. MOORE. I will not let him in. He is the only minister I have barred from the county jail.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you bar him from the county jail?

Mr. MOORE. We have found Rangers in the county jail with marihuana. I don't know how they get it. Some of our officers have been approached that if you call a certain number and ask for a certain person they will provide marihuana to you to bring to the jail. In fact, a week before I came, we found one so-called Blackstone Ranger with marihuana in his pocket.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know what telephone number that is?
Mr. MOORE. I have it back in Chicago.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know whose number it is?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. Eugene wanted the marihuana himself. This was before Eugene Hairston's release. He told us to call this numbernot me. I made my office play along with him. You are supposed to call this number and say Jeff Fort told you to get some stuff for Eugene, he needs it.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by "stuff"?

Mr. MOORE. Marihuana.

Senator MUNDT. Was Eugene Hairston a marihuana addict?
Mr. MOORE. Well, he wanted it.

Senator MUNDT. For himself?

Mr. MOORE. For himself and others.

At that time we had quite a few of the Main 21's in the county jail. Eugene Hairston was in there. Jeff Fort had just been released. We had A. D. McChristian. We had Melvin Bailey. We had Dinkins, and some of the lesser ones.

Senator MUNDT. Were they all in one cell together?

Mr. MOORE. They were. They were, they will not be any longer. Senator MUNDT. What?

Mr. MOORE. They will not be there much longer.

Senator MUNDT. They will not be there much longer?

Mr. MOORE. Not together.

Senator MUNDT. I see. They were?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. They were in a cell together, but from now on you are going to separate them?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. You think that would be a good policy. We live and learn in this business.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?

Senator MUNDT. Reverend Fry is the only minister

Mr. MOORE. Reverend Fry is the only minister I have not allowed in the county jail. He has gone all the way to the president of the County Board, who is running for Republican candidate for Governor for the State of Illinois, trying to get in.

So he wanted to get in awfully badly, when he came in with a pair of brown pants that he had for Eugene Hairston. I do not know what motivated him. I do not know him. But I have my own opinion as to this type of relationship.

Senator MUNDT. He really went to extraordinary pursuits.
Mr. MOORE. We went all the way to the top.

Senator MUNDT. Still he staved out.

Mr. MOORE. He still stayed out and he will continue to stay out. The CHAIRMAN. You said a moment ago he said he was his pastor. Mr. MOORE. Yes. Eugene had just told me that he did not go to that church. When I told him he was a liar, he got indignant. Then I asked him if he was a prize fighter, or words to that effect, and he finally left.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you the pastor of Eugene Hairston? I thought you told me he didn't belong to this church.

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN FRY-Resumed

Reverend FRY. No, sir. But a pastoral relation is not dependent upon membership in my congregation.

The CHAIRMAN. You can be his pastor without his being a member of your church?

Reverend FRY. I am a pastor to many people who are not members of the congregation.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Fry, is this correct, what has been testified to? Reverend FRY. Mr. McCree, to whom I wrote a letter, on his own initiative wrote further letters without my knowledge, and these letters were addressed, I believe, to Sheriff Woods

Senator JAVITS. Have you ever been given a reason why Mr. Moore keeps you out of the county jail? Has he ever given you a reason? Reverend FRY. There was only one incident in which I asked permission to enter the jail.

Senator JAVITS. In that incident, were you carrying a pair of trousers, as he says?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir. At the request of his mother.

Senator JAVITS. At the request of his mother?

Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

Senator JAVITS. What reason did Mr. Moore give you for barring you from the jail?

Reverend FRY. I don't recall there was a specific reason. It did appear to me, Senator Javits, that he didn't want me to be in jail very much. He seemed to take a more restricted view of the function of a pastor than I was assuming.

Senator JAVITS. He didn't give you a reason why you were the one barred? He says you are the only one he has barred. Did he give you a reason?

Reverend FRY. Not in that immediate way.

Senator JAVITS. In what way did he give it to you?

Reverend FRY. He was very upset over our understanding, our mutual misunderstanding of what a pastor was, and within my determination of what a pastor was, I most assuredly was Eugene Hairston's pastor. Within his understanding of a pastor I most assuredly was not. Therefore, he did not let me in.

Senator JAVITS. He says he has barred you from the jail as a regular policy. Is there anybody else in the jail you have tried to see that he has barred you from seeing?

Reverend FRY. No, sir. I have not made further attempts.

Senator JAVITS. You haven't tried?

Reverend FRY. I am a peaceable and friendly man and do not like these hostile accounts.

Senator MUNDT. I think the pastor has forgotten that he testified earlier that twice he tried to get into the jail.

Reverend FRY. These were earlier, Senator Mundt. These were in the previous administration.

TESTIMONY OF WINSTON MOORE-Resumed

Mr. MOORE. That was before I came. My predecessor felt the same

way.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Moore, bearing in mind that you may testify in executive session, I will say that the situation seems very incomplete. There is a reason, you obviously have a very strong reason. Yet you have not testified to it. I don't want to ask you to testify to it if you would prefer, if we believe that it is material, to be called in executive session.

I must ask you, do you feel you would rather give your reason, whatever it may be, should we choose to call you in executive session?

It does leave a great hole in the testimony. You obviously have a reason that you haven't stated.

Mr. MOORE. When I first testified, I more than gave a reason. I said I would not like to testify in open session as to why. Reverend Fry knows very well why I wouldn't allow him in the jail. I think he is a bad influence on inmates in the county jail.

My relationship with the Rangers goes back far greater than Fry's. It came from my experience with the Illinois Youth Commission, when I began to see. If you want me to tell you, I can tell you. Do you want the reasons now, or do you want to wait?

Senator JAVITS. If you are willing to testify to them in open session, I would rather have them now.

Senator MUNDT. I think the question has been asked and it should be answered.

Mr. MOORE. If you read my statement, you will understand why. It was my previous testimony given under oath.

Senator JAVITS. I think I would rather not raise another issue involving confrontations.

The CHAIRMAN. Reverend Fry, my recollection is that you have testified previously that you were not Eugene Hairston's spiritual adviser. Haven't you so testified under oath here during the time you have testified? Didn't you so testify?

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN FRY-Resumed

Reverend FRY. I would beg your leave to consult my memory. What was the colloquy?

The CHAIRMAN. You were asked the question and you said "No," you were not his spiritual adviser, that you were his legal adviser. Reverend FRY. Very well.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Reverend FRY. Very well. I am prepared to answer now. I have identified the colloquy.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not state that in answer to the question? Reverend FRY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you go down to the jail and tell him you are his pastor. You say they don't have to be members of the church for you to be their pastor. Certainly, it would imply that you were spiritual adviser, would it not?

Reverend FRY. Not necessarily.

The CHAIRMAN. What does a pastor do, if he doesn't advise spiritually and preach and pray for people? What does he do as a pastor? Reverend FRY. A pastor I conceive of as a man

The CHAIRMAN. A what?

Reverend FRY. As a man who relates himself in friendship and support of other people, regardless of their life circumstance, of their past, in such a way as to be helpful to them which in a way identifies my understanding of the church as an institution that is designed to help people, to give itself away, to be supportive of the community.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't remember what is in your statement, Mr. Moore, did you want to make a comment?

TESTIMONY OF WINSTON MOORE—Resumed

Mr. MOORE. Yes. I brought with me from Chicago the records in the county jail of all the visitations while Eugene Hairston and Jeff Fort were inmates in the county jail. I think this testimony would become quite pertinent in the light of the incident that will be alluded to at a later date.

He received visitors prior to and after that something happened. When this comes up, I want to make it a part of the record. Every visitor that these fellows had while they were in jail.

Senator JAVITS. Did Reverend Fry see them, actually?

Mr. MOORE. No. He saw them in court. He saw Eugene Hairston when he went to court.

Senator JAVITS. But not in the jail?

Mr. MOORE. NO. I would not let him in the jail.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions of this witness?
Mr. ADLERMAN. Those reports you have, are they in evidence now?
The CHAIRMAN. Have you put them in evidence now?

Mr. MOORE. No; not yet.

The CHAIRMAN. Let them be received and placed in evidence with your identification. They will be given the appropriate number and letter of identification.

(Documents made addition to exhibit No. 194 for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions of this witness?
I have no further questions of the Reverend Fry at this time.

His counsel has requested that he be permitted to return to Chicago to resume his church duties. I have no objection to his doing that. Unless others have questions, I am going to release him. He is to remain under subpena should we desire, later, to have him come back and testify.

I think I should advise both the Reverend and his counsel that there is other testimony that is going to be presented which I anticipate will be derogatory to him in connection with this matter. I cannot suspend these hearings. I am going on with them as fast as we can, working with our other duties.

That is a judgment for you to make, whether you want to be here

or not.

I didn't want you to get the impression that what you heard up to now may be all that would be testified to. I didn't want you to have that impression.

If the other members of the committee are through interrogating him now, I will be very glad to excuse you from further attendance until such time as you may be notified.

Senator JAVITS. May I just ask Reverend Fry if he wishes to make any other statement before he quits the stand?

TESTIMONY OF REV. JOHN R. FRY-Resumed

Reverend FRY. I am in gratitude to you, Mr. Chairman, for this consideration, and for the consideration in allowing me to come so promptly after the disclosures before the committee last Friday.

$5-779- -68-pt. 10-16