The CHAIRMAN. I did that because I felt certainly someone occupying your position should not have this dragged on for a week or two without giving you the opportunity to come right here and meet it head on.

Reverend FRY. I appreciate that.

Mr. BRACKETT. We will rely, Mr. Chairman, on your offer, that Reverend Fry can furnish statements at the conclusion of all the witnesses. We will follow it quite closely.

The CHAIRMAN. I wouldn't say when we would want him back. I will say this: Any time he wants to come back, when he feels he wants to come back, if he will get in touch with the Chair we will try to work it out.

I have already demonstrated, I think, that we are not trying to present testimony without giving him a full opportunity to reply to it. Mr. BRACKETT. I wanted to make it clear that failure to be here in response to any single witness is not agreement with the testimony. We simply want to see what the testimony is.

The CHAIRMAN. We understand that. That is why we are giving him the further opportunity, if testimony develops that he wants to reply to.

Senator MUNDT. I don't think counsel should be under the illusion, however, that at the end of the testimony, building the whole picture, and finally having it completed, that furnishing statements in refutation is going to be an adequate response.

If he wants to make a response then, he should appear in person so he could be interrogated. We can't interrogate a statement. Mr. BRACKETT. Very good, sir.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to recall Mr. Moore for one further question and then ask the Chair's indulgence while we call Dr. Zimmerman.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF WINSTON MOORE—Resumed

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Moore, I think I have now found your statement as to the reason.

Just to be sure that that is the reason, so we don't leave an open space in the testimony, may I read it to you?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Senator JAVITS (reading):

Senator CURTIS. What is the name of the minister at that church?

Mr. MOORE. Reverend John Fry. I want it made a part of the record that I would not let him in the county jail.

Senator CURTIS. We heard about it. Tell us why.

Mr. MOORE. Well, mainly, because I don't like him. I see him exploiting the Negro community.

Senator CURTIS. You saw him do what?

Mr. MOORE. I think he exploited the Negro community.

Senator CURTIS. He is a white man?

Mr. MOORE. Practically everybody in the First Presbyterian are white. I am not saying only Negroes can work with Negroes. I don't mean it that way. Senator CURTIS. I understand. Why would not you let him in the jail? Mr. MOORE. Well, because of what I heard about him that I did not like. Senator CURTIS. You thought he might take something into the jail?

Mr. MOORE. I would not put it past him. But I would search him to make sure he would not do that.

Is that the reason for not admitting him?
Mr. MOORE. There are other reasons.
Senator JAVITS. There are other reasons?
Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Senator JAVITS. Do you want to state them?

Mr. MOORE. It goes back approximately to 1965, at the time when I was working at the intake dormitory of the Illinois Youth Commission. At this time, we were getting a lot of young kids in—13, 14, 15 years old-for shootings. They had committed murder.

In my relationships with them, I began to ask them why and they began to tell me stories about the church.

At this time they had been committed to a State institution and they were in the diagnostic center. They began to tell me about the guns in the church, about the paying of dues, about what was in the church.

Shortly after this, in February of 1966, I left the Illinois Youth Commission and I went to work for the Illinois State Employment Service. We had an office in the Woodlawn area. A lot of the fellows in the Rangers I had previously known and it was my job to help try to get them in some type of jobs, especially working with the so-called hardcore unemployed. We had YOC centers throughout the city of Chicago, and we had one in Woodlawn.

The question came in front of one of the centers. Bernard Green was shot. That was right in front of the center. It got to the place where the Rangers couldn't go in the centers and the Disciples couldn't go in the service, so we had an office nobody was getting any service from.

I began to investigate, because it was a huge expenditure. We had 21 people employed, and this was a Government-funded project. All the Illinois State Employment Service is Government funded. We began to investigate, and I began to ask people questions, in addition to the Rangers that I knew.

Don Schwope was one from the boys club; Woods and others. We began to talk about it. All I could see was somebody exerting a negative influence on the whole community.

Because of this, and because of the behavior of the Rangers when I took over the county jail-the Rangers ran the county jail. We knew they had marihuana in the county jail. The question was how did it get in there.

Since I work in a security institution and my job is security, Fry was one of the first ones I barred from the jail.

Senator JAVITS. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, thank you.

Mr. BRACKETT. Mr. Chairman, before I retire, I represent Mr. Charles La Paglia, who was under subpena for Monday, which is long past.

The CHAIRMAN. We will go off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Javits wanted to call Dr. Zimmerman. He may come forward.

Mr. BRACKETT. We still have Mr. Rose here. I presume he is excused. The CHAIRMAN. He is not your client.

Come forward.

Will you be sworn, please?

You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF REV. DONALD E. ZIMMERMAN

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Javits wanted to ask you a few questions. Senator JAVITS. Can we have your office, Doctor?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I am the Reverend Donald E. Zimmerman. I am the executive of the Presbytery of Chicago of the United Presbyterian Church.

Senator JAVITS. What is the Presbytery of Chicago?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. The Presbytery of Chicago is the basic constitutional unit-a presbytery is a basic constitutional unit of the United Presbyterian Church. This presbytery is one of the large metropolitan presbyteries of the denomination. It covers the territories of Cook, Lake, and Du Page Counties which represents 144 congregations, I think, in these counties.

Senator JAVITS. Is every minister a member of the presbytery?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. In United Presbyterian Church, every minister is a member of a presbytery, and so all ministers residing in these three counties, unless for very brief temporary assignments, are members of the Presbytery of Chicago.

Senator JAVITS. Is the Reverend John Fry a member?
Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes, he is.

Senator JAVITS. He is the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church.
Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes, he is.

Senator JAVITS. I show you a telegram purported to be signed by the Reverend Herbert N. Brockaway, Chicago. I will ask you first whether the Reverend Herbert N. Brockaway is the stated clerk of the Presbytery of Chicago which you have described.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes, he is.

Senator JAVITS. Would you read this message which allegedly was sent to Senator McClellan and the members of his committee? The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. Let me see it, please.

I will let you read this telegram. It has nothing in the world to do with the merits of what we are investigating. You may read it and then I want to ask you a question.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I prepared a brief statement, Mr. Chairman, which I think

The CHAIRMAN. Read your telegram and then you can make any

statement.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Mr. Chairman, I don't think that is a responsible way for me to reply to your question because there were two actions in the Presbytery of Chicago meeting last night.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know anything about that. You asked to read a telegram.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. No; I did not ask, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been asked to read it by the member of the Senate who called you to the committee. I want you to read it and then I want to ask you a question.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to phrase my own question, I asked the witness to identify the statement I have shown him and state whether or not it is a telegram signed by the gentleman to whom I referred, whom he has identified.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, did I misunderstand you? Did you say the telegram was sent to me this morning?

Senator JAVITS. I am going to ask him whom it was sent to.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Senator JAVITS. I would like to do this in a lawyerlike way.

I would like you to tell me whether the telegram

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Is this the telegram, Senator, which you sent to me? [Indicating.]

Senator JAVITS. Yes. I want to know if that contains a statement purportedly signed by the clerk of the presbytery which allegedly went to members of this committee. I would like to get to the bottom of that. I would like to find out, one, whether such a telegram went, to your knowledge; whether it was actually sent by the gentleman who signed it, to your knowledge; and whom it went to, to your knowledge. That is all.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I will read the text of the telegram which the Senator gave me. I have not seen this immediate copy before. I have a copy of what presbytery acted upon. This telegram is addressed to John R. Fry, Lafayette Hotel, Washington, D.C.:

The Presbytery of Chicago acted June 25th to have the following message sent to Senator McClellan and members of his committee: "The Presbytery of Chicago, taking note to the telegram says 'All available reports of the proceedings of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Senate Committee on Government Operations protests the manner in which the character of a respected member of this body, the Reverend Mr. John R. Fry, has been repeatedly and viciously maligned. We strongly reaffirm our support of Mr. Fry as minister of the First Presbyterian Church of the community of Woodlawn. We furthermore respectively' "—

Let me point out I am reading the text of Western Union

"We furthermore respectively and urgently request the testimony of eminent citizens on behalf of the good character to Mr. Fry be admitted to the records of the subcommittee proceedings.'"

This is signed "the Reverend Herbert N. Brockaway, Stated Clerk, Presbytery of Chicago, United Presbyterian Church of the U.S.A." The name Fred Beebe appears on the telegram which I believe, care, indicates that Mr. Fred Beebe actually filed the telegram; I believe that is Western Union practice.

Senator JAVITS. Do you know any Fred Beebe?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I certainly do.

Senator JAVITS. Who is he?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. He is associate executive of the Presbytery of Chicago. That means he is my right-hand man.

Senator JAVITS. Was that text which you have read allegedly adopted by the Presbytery of Chicago, actually adopted by it? If so, when?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I have in my hand an original copy from the proceedings of the presbytery last night. I can read it to check the text, but in those places to which I called your attention and where I em

phasized precisions that didn't seem to me to be right, I think that is the correct text.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask a question or two?

The CHAIRMAN. Let us permit Senator Javits to finish, please. Senator JAVITS. Will you read the text of what they did? Just read it as they did it.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. All right. I think I ought to tell you that this was a meeting of the Presbytery of Chicago yesterday, for which I left the city of Washington to be back at my primary post of responsibility, after having been here on Monday. I made a statement, a brief report, to the presbytery. I have again the original text of that statement, if you wish to know what I said, if you wish to know. And then the presbytery did pass two resolutions, of which one is, I am sure, substantially exactly the intent and so forth of the one which I have just read.

Senator JAVITS. Read both resolutions.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. If you wish me to read the two motions which the presbytery passed, I shall do so. Senator JAVITS. All right.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN (reading). Acknowledging that the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations on Government Operations of the United States Senate has not completed its inquiries into the operation of the Office of Economic Opportunity, or even into a particular grant to the Woodlawn Organization, or even into the Permanent First Church of Chicago, nonetheless, the Presbytery finds nothing in responsible reports from the hearings to cause it to re-consider its support of First Presbyterian Church or its program, or to question the integrity of the Reverend Doctor John Fry. Therefore, we resolve that the Presbytery of Chicago reaffirm its support of the ministry of the First Presbyterian Church of Chicago under Mr. Fry's leadership. We recognize that he is offering a creative and courageous approach to extremely difficult urban problems and that he has performed these services in the name of Jesus Christ. We pray that truth and justice will prevail and that the Reverend John Fry and his associates will be exonerated of charges made during the current Subcommittee hearings. We request the Presbytery direct General Counsel to receive any further reports or questions concerning the program of First Church and take such actions within its purview as may be indicated. We further resolve that copies of this resolution be sent to the Reverend John Fry, the news media of Chicago, the Subcommittee in Washington, Senators and Representatives of Illinois, and Mayor Daley.

Be it further resolved that copies of this resolution be posted or read in all the member churches of the Chicago Presbytery.

Senator JAVITS. That is one.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Thereafter, a motion was made like this, and it was passed. I was present for this whole proceeding.

I move

Said the mover of the motion

that the following telegram be sent to the members of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Senate Committee on Government Operations, with copy to be sent to the Reverend Mr. John Fry: "The Presbytery of Chicago, taking note of all available reports of the proceedings of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations protest the manner in which the character of a respected member of this body, the Reverend Dr. John Fry has been repeatedly and viciously maligned. We strongly reaffirm our support of Dr. Fry and the ministry of the First Presbyterian Church in the community of Woodlawn.

"We further respectfully and urgently request the testimony from eminent citizens on behalf of the character of Dr. Fry be admitted to the records of the Committee proceedings."