Senator JAVITS. Was that telegram sent, to your knowledge? Reverend ZIMMERMAN. In order to get back here, I left this meeting late last night, Senator, and I am confident that the stated clerk, who is an old and trusted member of that presbytery and that office did dispatch these telegrams, whether he did it personally or from the office of the presbytery, asking Mr. Beebe to do that, I can't say.

Senator JAVITS. Was that a meeting called in conformance with the rules or what other procedures you have in the presbytery?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. This was a stated meeting of the Presbytery of Chicago. Our technical language and in our ecclesiastical language it means that this was a regular meeting. Therefore, this meeting was scheduled for yesterday, the 25th. It might have been scheduled before Noah's Ark. I don't know. It is a regular schedule of meetings. I say this because I don't want you to think that the presbytery had a special meeting because of your committee hearing.

Senator JAVITS. Is there any requirement as to how many ministers should constitute a quorum in such a meeting?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. The quorum is very low, but the membership of the presbytery as it sits is composed of every minister within its bounds. That phrase, again, is our phrase, and it is composed, in addition, of one ruling elder, who is a member of a session, from each congregation from the presbytery, and of an additional ruling elder from a congregation which has more than one minister, that is, matching pastor to ruling elder.

Senator JAVITS. And how many were present at the meeting?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I don't know the exact number, but I would estimate 250-275.

Senator JAVITS. At the meeting which adopted these resolutions? Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I beg your pardon?

Senator JAVITS. At the meeting which adopted these resolutions? Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator JAVITS. You said you wanted to make a statement. May I ask you if it is very extended?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I have already read the two telegrams. It is up to you whether you want to hear the kind of report I made. It isn't evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It isn't evidence?

Senator JAVITS. Do you wish to make any other statement, Reverend Zimmerman, other than the telegrams and the action you have reported? If so, please make it.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Let me look at my notes.

The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, may I ask you a question about the telegram?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes.

Senator JAVITS. I will yield.

The CHAIRMAN. Look at the telegram and see when it is dated.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Its arrival here this morning was 9:16.

The CHAIRMAN. It arrived at 9:16 this morning?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. This is usually stamped, and I believe that

is the way it is. It is usually stamped with the arrival.

The CHAIRMAN. That would indicate when it arrived?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And he says there in that telegram that he has wired the members of this committee?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Acted June 25th and had the following message sent to Senator McClellan and members of his committeeare you suggesting that you have not received it?

The CHAIRMAN. I just received it a few moments ago. Would you look at my telegram and see when it was received?

(Document handed witness.)

The CHAIRMAN. I want to know why the delay. I was charged here this morning with having received a telegram. I had no knowledge of it. Can you tell me now why the delay? Look at that one and see when it was received.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. It was received at 5 :25.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. That has nothing to do, Mr. Senator, with when it was dispatched in Chicago. I have just too much experience with that.

The CHAIRMAN. That other one seemed to get well dispatched but mine didn't get here until a few minutes ago.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. That is right. It is dated June 25th. So this meant that it had to be dispatched in Chicago before midnight last night. This meeting didn't end until about a quarter to 11.

The CHAIRMAN. It did what?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. This meeting didn't end until about a quarter to 11, as I recall it. So I think that the person who sent this telegram did fairly well.

The CHAIRMAN. It got here this afternoon.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Well that is a Western Union responsibility, not ours.

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't know whether it was yours or not. How do you know? Do you know when it was dispatched?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. It is dated June 25th. That was yesterday, wasn't it?

The CHAIRMAN. Look at the top line and see when it was sent. I couldn't understand. I was being charged here this morning with getting a telegram, and I didn't understand why I hadn't received mine. I just received it a short time ago.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I have nothing to do with this. I don't even hold stock in Western Union.

The CHAIRMAN. You did what?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I am being facetious. I have no idea why Western Union didn't deliver it.

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't know whether you knew or not. I didn't know why I should be told I was supposed to have a telegram all day and I just got it a few minutes ago.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. There is no faster route except a personal telephone call to any of us than the services of the Western Union. A letter would not have reached you any sooner.

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't say anything about a letter.

Senator MUNDT. Why don't you simply read the message at the top of the telegram? It shows the hour sent on both of them. That is part of the standard practice. You just have to look at the dateline.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. If you can deciper the code across the top, it does bear the date of June 25th.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead with your questions, Senator.

Senator JAVITS. Would you care to make any other statement, Dr. Zimmerman, other than of the two actions of the presbytery that you read?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I did say that my own report to the presbytery was available if you want me to read it.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the statement about? You said it was not evidence. Then nothing that you put in here is evidence. But I would like to know what it is about. I would like to read it before it is read into the record.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. You would like to know what what is about? The CHAIRMAN. I would like to know what it is about. I would like to read it before it is put into the record.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I was not asking the witness to read anything.

The CHAIRMAN. He has something prepared to read. I think before it is admitted into evidence-he says it is not evidence-that we are entitled to know what it is.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, my question to the witness is this: Mr. Witness, do you wish to make any statement in addition to the statement you have already made? If you do, please make it in response to my question.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. Are you going to read a statement? Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I am, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that your response to the question?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. It is.

The CHAIRMAN. Read it and let's see what it says. It is not evidence. I think you admit that before you start.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I did not admit it.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I think this is getting a little out of order. Let's have the answer.

Read the statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's have him read it.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I will read what I have written. I have written this since Senator Javits used my name this afternoon indicating I might be called.

I note your questions to Dr. Fry as to whether he would welcome or had invited an examination of his work by the Presbytery of Chicago. The United Presbyterian Church is probably as carefully organized as any other in the land. The presbytery is the basic unit to which a minister or a congregation is related. The presbytery has authority, all ecclesiastical authority necessary, to conduct any examination or evaluation it wishes to conduct of either a minister or a congregation, or even in an ecclesiastical court to try any charges that may be presented. It must be noted that last night at a meeting of the Presbytery of Chicago no disposition was evidenced, and I was there without any interruption-no disposition whatever to examine, much less to repudiate, to rebuke or discipline, Dr. Fry or First Presbyterian Church.

It would be helpful, Mr. Chairman, in this connection, if you were to extend to the Presbytery of Chicago an unusual courtesy-I think it is an unusual courtesy-namely, to direct that I, as executive of the presbytery, should receive a transcript of these proceedings and, sir, it would be doubly beneficial if I were to receive these daily as they are prepared for the committee in order that the presbytery officially may have before it the kind of material which seemed to me to prompt the committee's question earlier in the day as to whether he had invited or had been subjected to an examination.

One final thing. The budgeting process. How does a church receive support? How does a particular mission in the field receive support? It is not by the arbitrary determination of an officer like myself. In this particular case, there is a committee. We call it the south area committee operating in the city. This, in turn, belongs to a department over the whole of the city. It receives requests for financial aid or any other support from a church or an agency. This committee has authority to make any inquiry it cares to initiate, and it does so rather carefully and frequently. The budget is prepared then finally by the committee which is broadly representative of all the programs of the presbytery, and in this particular presbytery there are 68 of those lines of program in 1968. Thus, there is some competition for limited dollars.

The budget is finally adopted by the whole of the presbytery in another stated meeting.

I suggest by calling your attention to this that the program at the First Presbyterian Church has not been outside the attention of the Presbytery of Chicago, predating, a long time, the coming of John Fry to that particular pastorate.

Senator JAVITS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CURTIS. Were you through, Dr. Zimmerman?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I think that is all I have to volunteer.

Senator CURTIS. These resolutions were based upon your confidence in Dr. Fry?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I think the resolution said-there was a phrase on the information which is available to us-which was principally my own oral report a written copy of which is here, and the newspaper and news media coverage.

Senator CURTIS. Has the presbytery or any part thereof made an investigation dealing with the same matters that this committee is dealing with?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes; the answer is "Yes," but it must be qualified, so I immediately would qualify it by saying of course not, in the manner in which you are straining at the details, the corroboration of evidence, the manner I have listened to in the last few days.

Senator CURTIS. I just want to know whether or not you have investigated these basic things. I wonder if anyone representing the presbytery has sat down with Mrs. Annabelle Martin, who, under oath, told us what happened to her two little boys.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I cannot answer that.

Senator CURTIS. Has that been done?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I cannot answer that it has been done, nor can I answer that it has not.

Senator CURTIS. Has anyone representing the presbytery interviewed Commander Griffin, the police officer who testified here to find out such information as would be helpful to the church in appraising what is being said here?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I cannot answer because I don't know that such interviews have taken place, but it must be apparent to all of you that the church would obviously, the Presbytery of Chicago or any committee of it, would obviously not compose a list of witnesses such as you have had before you in the last week because we would not engage in this kind of investigation.

Senator CURTIS. What was wrong with those witnesses? What is wrong with Mr. Rose? He has been accepted, I believe, for a position as policeman in one of the cities.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. I don't think this opinion is within my purview at all. I cannot answer that kind of a question.

Senator CURTIS. Should we, as Senators, listen to a story like Mrs. Martin told? If what she said is true, then I think the presbytery maybe should have waited.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Should have waited to do what?

Senator CURTIS. To form their opinion.

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. The presbytery said that on the basis of responsible reports, and that is what it said. That was as of last night. The intent of my request

Senator CURTIS. But you also OK'd the project, and directed that your statement go to the press and to every church in the presbytery. Reverend ZIMMERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. And you have done so without an investigation; is that right?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. No, sir. The presbytery is engaged in a good bit of this program and it has been the subject of a great deal of discussion.

Senator CURTIS. Who has investigated Reverend Fry's association with Mr. Eugene Hairston?

Reverend ZIMMERMAN. No one in the presbytery in the manner in which you have investigated it. That is not the point.

Senator CURTIS. Not in the manner in which we investigated. I am as concerned about the Presbyterian Church as you are, and I mean that. I want to know whether or not any of you have ever investigated Reverend Fry's association with Eugene Hairston. Frankly, this is one of the most puzzling cases that has ever come before us.

I want to know if you know what you are talking about. Have you ever investigated anybody? Have you investigated Reverend Fry's association with Jeff Fort? Have you investigated the other details of what Mrs. Martin said?

I haven't made up my mind on this case, and I don't think any question that I have asked will indicate that I have. I dislike to have the church with which I am associated used to blast this committee before the record is all in.

If these witnesses are telling the truth, we have a very serious thing on hand. If they are telling falsehoods, every one of them should be punished for perjury.