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Mr. KARTON. Senator, I did to an extent, from September 1967 until March 1968 I was assigned to handle the gang prosecutions for the States attorney's office in connection with handling the cases arising from riots and civil disorder in Cook County which job I had for 2 years prior to that time.

As a result of that assignment I did have the occasion to handle the initial work as well as the indictment and initial preparation of the case against Mr. Hairston.

The CHAIRMAN. In the course of handling them did you have conversations with the young men, young boys, that were involved, particularly the Martin boys?

Mr. KARTON. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The boys whose mother testified here?

Mr. KARTON. Yes; I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You had conversations with them? Did they have an attorney?

Mr. KARTON. At the time they were represented by a Mr. William Seltzer who was an attorney working out of Legal Aid in Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. How do you spell the last name?

Mr. KARTON. S-e-l-t-z-e-r.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know who secured Mr. Seltzer for them? Mr. KARTON. Only what I was told by Mrs. Martin. She told me that Reverend Fry had instructed her to contact him and that he would represent her and she did that at his request.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what she reported to you at the time?

Mr. KARTON. Yes. Mr. Seltzer only indicated to me that he was the attorney for the boys but didn't tell me how he was retained.

The CHAIRMAN. He did represent to you that he represented the boys?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. He was there from the Legal Aid Society?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. To represent the boys?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. He did not tell you how arrangements were made but Mrs. Martin, the mother of the boys, told you at the time how their arrangements were made?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

There was another attorney from Legal Aid with whom I had no dealings until after the indictment was returned. Then I met him once and spoke to him very briefly. I don't recall his name. He represented himself to be working along with Mr. Seltzer representing the two boys.

Senator CURTIS. What was his name?

Mr. KARTON. I don't recall, sir. I only met him that once.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you tell us what happened? Just give us the story of what occurred when the attorney came and said he was representing them.

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How old were these boys? As I remember they were

13 or 14.

Mr. KARTON. Samuel Martin was 13, Marvin Martin, I believe, was 14 at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Thirteen and 14?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. KARTON. On the day we took the case to the grand jury I had talked to both Samuel Martin and Marvin Martin at my office prior to the time we went to the grand jury.

I was about to go up to the grand jury room when Mr. Seltzer came rapidly down the hall. He stopped me. He told me that he represented the two boys, told me that he wanted to talk to the two boys in private. The CHAIRMAN. He intercepted you as you were taking the boys to the grand jury room?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct. This was still in the State's attorney's office, however.

The CHAIRMAN. It was in the State's attorney's office?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. But you were enroute to the grand jury room with the boys so they could testify?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Now he contacted you there and told you that he represented them?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what happened then.

Mr. KARTON. We made a room available to him, an empty office. He took the two boys into that room. He didn't want Mrs. Martin to go into the room with them.

The CHAIRMAN. He didn't?

Mr. KARTON. No; he said he represented the boys, not Mrs. Martin. Senator CURTIS. How old did you say the boys were?

Mr. KARTON. Thirteen and 14, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He did not want her to go in the room with them? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know that as a fact?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened?

Mr. KARTON. He went in the room and stayed in the room with the door closed with the boys for a few minutes. He came out of the room. The boys told me, both of them, that they were afraid of him and they didn't want to talk to him any more.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they tell you that in his presence?

Mr. KARTON. He was about 10 feet down the hall when they told me. However, they told me that he had threatened them. They told me that he had threatened that they would be killed if they testified. I asked him about that.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean the boys when they came out after he would not let the mother in there with them, the boys came out after he had a conference with them, this lawyer, and said they were afraid of him?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. He had told them they would be killed if they testified?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. KARTON. Mrs. Martin at that time said that he had threatened them before.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Martin?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Did she say that in his presence?

Mr. KARTON. He was still about 10 feet down the hall.

The CHAIRMAN. Could he have heard it or did he hear it?

Mr. KARTON. I don't think he did. I asked him about that. I was quite upset.

The CHAIRMAN. You immediately asked him about that?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

I was very upset about the whole thing. I asked him, I told him what the boys had said and what Mrs. Martin had said. He told me that he didn't threaten them. He said that he merely told them, since he represented them, the possible alternatives and the possible consequences of the alternatives.

He said that he told them that they ought to realize that the gang had threatened to kill them if they testifiedSenator CURTIS. Who said that?

Mr. KARTON. The attorney, Mr. Seltzer.

The CHAIRMAN. This is the attorney himself telling you that he had told these children that?

Mr. KARTON. He told me he just wanted to advise the boys of the possible consequences and that he had known that the gang had threatened to kill them if they had testified against Gene Hairston. At that point I was quite angry and I took him in to see Mr. Tuite The CHAIRMAN. Who is he?

Mr. KARTON. He is chief of the criminal division of the State's attorney's office.

The CHAIRMAN. He was-is your chief?

Mr. KARTON. He is my immediate superior; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. KARTON. I told Mr. Tuite what the boys had told me and about my conversation with Mr. Seltzer. He asked Mr. Seltzer about it. Mr. Seltzer gave him the same answers he gave me in my presence.

We thereafter made arrangements at the Audy Home where we were keeping the boys at that time for their own protection not to let him or anybody else that the boys did not expressly ask for get in to see them.

They were kept in maximum security accommodation at the Audy Home thereafter.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he represent them after that?

Mr. KARTON. The initial delinquency charges that were placed against the boys were dismissed after that and we granted the boys immunity from prosecution.

The CHAIRMAN. Who granted them?

Mr. KARTON. The petition of the State's attorney to Chief Justice Power

The CHAIRMAN. Did Seltzer represent the boys after that?

Mr. KARTON. No. They had no representation at all. There were no charges pending after that.

The CHAIRMAN. He was there to represent them that day?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they under charges then?

Mr. KARTON. They were still under charges at that particular moment. It was before we took the boys to the grand jury and after we saw Mr. Seltzer that we petitioned the court to grant the boys immunity and Chief Judge Power granted that petition.

The CHAIRMAN. Those were 13-year-old boys testifying against this gang leader?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Who had solicited them to do this killing and they were there to go before the grand jury?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. In the custody of the assistant State's attorney? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You were intercepted by this lawyer and told by him that he represented the boys and he wanted to talk to them privately?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You granted the request. He took them in the room. He declined to let the mother accompany them?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Did she ask to accompany them?

Mr. KARTON. She initially made overtures to go into the room with her two boys. He told her that he wanted to talk to the boys alone, not in her presence.

The CHAIRMAN. How long was he in there with these boys?

Mr. KARTON. Just a few minutes.

(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)

The CHAIRMAN. Did the boys appear to be frightened when they came out?

Mr. KARTON. They did, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, what he told them had had its effect?

Mr. KARTON. It appeared to. They looked frightened to me.

The CHAIRMAN. What did they say about whether they were frightened or not?

Mr. KARTON. They said they were afraid of him and that they didn't want to talk to him any more. They had talked to him at the Audy Home prior to that time. They had talked to him that morning. They asked me, "Do we have to see that man again."

I told them "No." We made arrangements to make sure they would not see him.

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The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you as a lawyer. When these witnesses are grand jury witnesses to go before the grand jury-when they are in the process of taking them to be interrupted with counsel like that. Of course, they had a right to have counsel. Counsel had a perfect right to talk to his clients; he did right of course to talk to the clients. What is your reaction to a lawyer's threatening children like that, reminding them that the gang is going to kill them if they testify?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, if the witnesses had been adults I would think that the lawyer representing the best interests of his client would have been proper in pointing out the alternatives. In this case since the witnesses were 13 and 14 years old and regardless of their street ex

perience, they are still in their tender years, I think he should have pointed out to the mother and let the mother tell the boys.

I was very upset because even if it weren't intended as a threat, the effect on 13- and 14-year-old boys was certainly obvious. These boys were scared.

The CHAIRMAN. It was suggested to them if they told the truth they would be killed?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you place any other interpretation on it? Mr. KARTON. Giving the benefit of the doubt, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What other interpretation could you place on it?

Mr. KARTON. I could assume that the attorney with the best of intentions merely wanted to make sure that the boys understood what they were doing and had made a decision based on the possible consequences.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you think if that was his motive that there would be any objection to having the mother present?

Mr. KARTON. I don't. I think that the attorney committed a terrible error in judgment, again giving him the benefit of every doubt; but I was very upset about it.

The CHAIRMAN. You are trying to give him the benefit of every doubt?

Mr. KARTON. I am.

The CHAIRMAN. This was the second time. He had already talked to the boys once.

Mr. KARTON. In the Audy home; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what he had told them there?

Mr. KARTON. Only what they told me. I was not there. This was the first time I had seen this lawyer in connection with this case or ever talked to him.

The CHAIRMAN. Had they reported or told of the threats there? Mr. KARTON. Yes, Senator.

They told me that they had been in receipt of threats in the Audy Home by other inmates of the Audy Home as well as statements of this nature by Mr. Seltzer.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry

Mr. KARTON. They told me, sir, that while they were in the Audy Home they were in receipt of threats from other inmates as well as statements of this type from the attorney, Mr. Seltzer.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you convinced that these children were subjected to this kind of intimidation during the time that they were expected to be witnesses in this case?

Mr. KARTON. I am. We moved their family several times.

The CHAIRMAN. You did what?

Mr. KARTON. We moved the family, Mr. Martin and the children. The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. KARTON. Because of the threats that were made and because we were fearful that there would be reprisals.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the States attorney's office go to the trouble and expense of moving the family and giving them guards to protect them and so forth if they were not convinced there was danger?

Mr. KARTON. Mr. Stanios is a very, very fine prosecutor.

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