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I think if he thought there were even a remote possibility he would do it to protect them.

The CHAIRMAN. He would only do it when he thought there was danger?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct. I recommended to him that we move the family and he complied with my recommendation.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it your considered judgment at the time that these threats were not idle threats, that they were sincere and intended to have an impact and an influence on these children?

Mr. KARTON. That was my impression and it still is my impression. The CHAIRMAN. It still is your impression?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So much so that you asked for protection for them? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. How many times have you moved the family? Do you know?

Mr. KARTON. To my knowledge we moved them at least four and perhaps a fifth, I believe.

The CHAIRMAN. Four and perhaps a fifth time?

Mr. KARTON. Yes. Not only my office contributed to the protection of this family. We not only had State's attorney policemen but the gang intelligence unit in the Chicago Police Department through the task force also cooperated with us in every possible way to protect this family and others whom we had to move from time to time. The CHAIRMAN. Over what period of time?

Mr. KARTON. I was only working on the gang case from September 1967 until March 1968. So, it was within that period that we moved four or five or six I believe different families.

The CHAIRMAN. You were actually in this function about 6 months? Mr. KARTON. That is correct. From its inception until March of 1968.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you find the general conditions are in that neighborhood where these killings are occurring-with respect to threats and shootings and the difficulty of getting witnesses to testify? Just tell us what the real condition is.

Mr. KARTON. Senator, when we started-when the States attorneys office started this unit we attempted-when I say we I mean me and initially two States attorneys policemen who were assigned to me, Officers Spellar and Corbett-we were later accompanied by an investigator, Robert Pierson, who is a witness here.

We attempted to get the word of the Rangers, The Disciples and their related splinter groups that we would deal fairly with them if they dealt fairly with us, that we would respect their wishes if they told us that they refused to testify, if they would come in and tell us the information that they had.

As a result, we stuck to our bargain and there were quite a few members of the various gangs that came to my office and talked to me and told me a great number of things about the gangs, about the activities, about what was happening, about their modus operandi, so to speak, about their structure.

However, every single one, with no exception, told me categorically that they would not make a statement that I would have transcribed,

they would not give a written statement nor would they testify in

court.

Furthermore, they would appreciate it if I would not even tell anybody that they were in my office because they were fearful that the very fact they were talking to me might result in repercussions. The CHAIRMAN. Is this a community of terror where terror reigns? Mr. KARTON. The boys certainly seem to think so.

The CHAIRMAN. What boys?

Mr. KARTON. The boys that talked to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Among the Rangers and The Disciples?

Mr. KARTON. And their splinter groups' interest, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it appear from the rate of crime there, the shooting?

Mr. KARTON. It is staggering.

The CHAIRMAN. It is staggering?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, I do not think that even people who are relatively familiar with law enforcement but who are not specifically involved with the Woodlawn area, appreciate the extent of the crime and violence in the Woodlawn area.

The CHAIRMAN. Is most of it committed, or do you know from your position, is most of it committed by these gang members?

Mr. KARTON. In the Woodlawn area, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is where the Blackstone Rangers are?

Mr. KARTON. And The Disciples. The Disciples have part of the area and the Rangers have part of the area.

The CHAIRMAN. The Blackstone Rangers are the principal ones in that area?

Mr. KARTON. I believe the Blackstone Rangers have more than half of Woodlawn.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with the number of shootings that are occurring out there

Mr. KARTON. In 1967, Senator, there were 115 incidents of shooting in the Woodlawn area. That is a 56-square block area. I might point out, however, that when I am talking about 115 incidents I am talking only of those incidents that were reported, first of all.

Second of all, only incidents where either the victim or the offender was 17 or under. I don't have statistics involving the cases with adults, that is 18 years of age and older.

The CHAIRMAN. Those were juvenile shootings, 115 incidents in a 56-square block area?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. In 1967?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you sufficiently familiar with how the gangs operate, having talked to a number of members in connection with your official work? Can you give us any comment or information regarding the alleged practice, that the gang leaders now are soliciting and hiring or inducing juveniles to do their killings?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, I would like to explain for a minute what the law in Illinois is regarding juveniles so that you will understand the relation.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. KARTON. The law as it stands right now provides that a youth that is 16 years of age and younger, regardless of the offense that he commits, regardless of how many offenses he commits, upon conviction, whether it be in the juvenile court or in the criminal court, is committed to the Illinois Youth Commission for an indefinite sentence.

The Court has no control over how long he remains there. Now if a 16-year-old boy commits a murder we can indict him and try him in the criminal court. He can there be found guilty of murder. However, he must thereafter, if he is still 16, be committed to the Illinois. Youth Commission.

The Illinois Youth Commission can release him the next day, if they see fit, or keep him any length of time until he is 21 or until they feel he becomes incorrigible.

If he becomes incorrigible or 21, whichever is first, they can thereafter transfer him to the penitentiary.

It is only at that time that a sentence imposed by a judge, if he is tried in a criminal court, has any effect at all. To the best of my knowledge, since 1961 when this law was changed to the way it stands now, nobody has ever been sent to the penitentiary from the Illinois Youth Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean for murder?

Mr. KARTON. For anything. It makes no difference, whatever the offense is. There was an example, sir, in 1966 I believe. A boy by the name of Steve Harris was adjudicated as a delinquent in the juvenile court for murdering two people and attempting to murder a third.

Pursuant to the law he was committed to the Illinois Youth Commission. He remained in the Illinois Youth Commission for 18 months and was released as an IRC parole.

The CHAIRMAN. He remained there how long?

Mr. KARTON. Eighteen months.

The CHAIRMAN. Then was released?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. How old was he?

Mr. KARTON. He was just 17.

The CHAIRMAN. He killed two people?

Mr. KARTON. He was committed because he had killed two people

and the third didn't die.

The CHAIRMAN. He shot a third one?

Mr. KARTON. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Were these killings at different times?

Mr. KARTON. They were all one occasion.

The CHAIRMAN. All one act?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Two killings and wounding of another was all in one incident?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not mean to criticize the law of the State, that is their judgment. I am not commenting on the merits or the lack of merits of it, but may I ask you this.

Do you get cooperation, witness cooperation, in these cases from the general citizenship of that community or are they afraid to testify?

Whatever your judgment is about it.

Mr. KARTON. There was a short period of time in late 1967 when we began to indict quite a few members of these gangs and about that time witnesses began to come into our office. However, that sort of petered out. It is very difficult to get witnesses to come in and testify unless, of course, the witness is a member of a rival gang.

If a witness is a member of a rival gang, they are only too willing to come in and testify.

The CHAIRMAN. They are always willing?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But where they know what their own gang does do you get cooperation from them?

Mr. KARTON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. How about the cooperation of the fathers and mothers and parents of the members of this gang?

Mr. KARTON. No; it is very difficult to get any of the adult citizens of the community to come in to testify.

The CHAIRMAN. So, you have a very, very distressing situation it

seems to me.

Is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. I would say frustrating.

The CHAIRMAN. It is difficult to enforce the law.

Mr. KARTON. It is frustrating, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Difficult to protect the people?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Protect their lives?

Mr. KARTON. We can't move everybody. We don't have enough policemen to protect everybody.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a case, though, where you have the president of one of the gangs convicted?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. In this instance where you move these people around?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. He was the assistant project director, I believe, of this OEO program they had there. Is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may not know about that.

Mr. KARTON. I know he was employed in the program. His exact position I found out as a result of these hearings. I knew he was employed and he received a salary from them.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not know the position he held or the amount of salary?

Mr. KARTON. I knew it was up around $6,000 and he was either a director or a supervisor.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with this chart?

Mr. KARTON. Generally, sir; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. KARTON. I am generally familiar with the chart; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you know about the people? Do you know many of them?

Mr. KARTON. I don't know them personally other than the times I have seen them in court. I have seen Eugene Hairston when we indicted him. Jeff Fort I have seen in court; he was under indictment.

George Rose I have seen in court and I have seen here, and after court, of course, I talked to him. Paul Martin we indicted. William Troop we indicted. Edward Bey we had indicted.

Incidentally, Edward Bey, William Troop, and Lee Jackson are still under indictment.

The CHAIRMAN. For what?
Mr. KARTON. For rape.
The CHAIRMAN. Rape?
Mr. KARTON. Yes.

A. D. McChristian is under indictment presently for aggravated battery and attempted murder.

The CHAIRMAN. What positions do they hold?

Mr. KARTON. Troop is an instructor at $5,200 a year, Edward Bey is an assistant vocational education supervisor at $6,000 a year. Lee Jackson is an instructor at $5,200 a year. A. D. McChristian, who is presently under indictment for aggravated battery and attempted murder, is a community worker at $2 per hour.

I have seen others in court as spectators.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. KARTON. I have seen others in court as spectators.

The CHAIRMAN. When you have a trial of one of them they are all there?

Mr. KARTON. Some of them are there; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. As a law enforcement officer and from your experience with this gang and its members in connection with the performance of your official duties what do you say about them?

Are they an uplift to society in that community or even with Federal aid would you call them an uplift organization?

Mr. KARTON. I would certainly say the people with whom I have dealt are not an uplift to the community.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. KARTON. I would say they are not a credit to the community in my terms.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not a credit to the community in your terms?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Has the lawless situation improved therein since this Federal aid was granted to them?

Mr. KARTON. According to the statistics provided by Charles Livermore, who is the director of the Commission on Youth Welfare in Chicago, it has increased.

The CHAIRMAN. Crime has increased since they had this Federal project?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know to what extent? Who can supply us with those figures?

Mr. KARTON. In 1967 the grant came in June and there was onlybased on the shooting incidents there was only one shooting incident in June 1967, so the year is pretty well split in half by the date of the grant.

The shooting incidents increased by just under 100 percent in 1967. The CHAIRMAN. In 1967, the latter part of 1967-what are you talking about now?

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