Mr. KARTON. From July through December the incidents of shooting in the Woodlawn area increased by just under 100 percent over the incidents of shooting from January through June 1967.

The CHAIRMAN. The last 6 months of the year at the time this program went into effect?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. How about this year, the first 6 months of this year? Do you have that information?"

Mr. KARTON. I believe I do but I have to look for it, sir.

In 1968, as of May 1968, according to my records there were 75 shootings in Woodlawn. I don't have it broken down by months, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Seventy-five shootings in Woodlawn since the first of the year?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you say whether it was an increase?

Mr. KARTON. The total number in 1967 was 115 for the whole year. We are talking here about 75 in January, February, March, April, and May.

The CHAIRMAN. It would be an increase?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What time in May was this?

Mr. KARTON. I believe it was the second or third week in May.

The CHAIRMAN. So, you have another full month to go?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you had one there the other day, too.
Mr. KARTON. We have had several.

The CHAIRMAN. You have had several since then?

Mr. KARTON. According to the newspapers. I haven't been there since the 19th of May.

The CHAIRMAN. According to the newspaper reports you have had several since the 19th of May?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. That would make it run above 75 for the first 6 months?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't know just how much above 75?

Mr. KARTON. No, sir; I don't.

Senator CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly; go right ahead.

Senator CURTIS. What is your age?

Mr. KARTON. Twenty-seven, sir.

Senator CURTIS. How long have you practiced law?

Mr. KARTON. Since May 18, 1965.

Senator CURTIS. You have been connected with the prosecutor's office since that time?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. What is your role in the prosecutor's office? Do you conduct the trials, do you help in the preparation?

Mr. KARTON. My role right now and the particular assignment I have is to receive the case after an indictment has been returned by a grand jury and from that point on through the conclusion of the trial handle all the preparation, the trial, confer with witnesses as well as participate in some limited way with the police investigation.

That is my role as a trial assistant.

However, from July 1966 until September 1967 I handled riot and civil disorder cases in Cook County.

Senator CURTIS. As assistant prosecutor have you handled a number of offenses where gangs were involved?

Mr. KARTON. Yes; I have.

Senator CURTIS. Would they be in the dozens? I know you don't have a tabulation as such but just give us an idea.

Mr. KARTON. All told throughout our office there are scores of cases that are gang related.

Senator CURTIS. Those that you have intimate knowledge of?
Mr. KARTON. I would say there are at least 20.

Senator CURTIS. In any of those 20 have you relied on that police force known as the gang intelligence unit and have you ever found that you were let down, misled, either deceived, or victimized by poor preparation or error in judgment?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, from September 1967 until March 1968 I worked very, very closely with the gang intelligence unit as a whole. Throughout that time I found the members of the gang intelligence unit from Lieutenant Buckney on down to be dedicated, hard working, accurate, and thorough men in whom I have had and have great faith in their ability.

I know first-hand the extent of their work and how hard their job is. Senator CURTIS. You believe it is honest?

Mr. KARTON. I do.

Senator CURTIS. You believe its work has not been based upon brutality or hatred or intimidation?

Mr. KARTON. I believe it has not been.

Senator CURTIS. You believe that the gang intelligence unit is a necessary part of the law enforcement operation in Chicago? Mr. KARTON. Yes; I do.

Senator CURTIS. Do you think that the abolishing of it would hamper law enforcement and be a detriment to law-abiding citizens? Mr. KARTON. I think it ought to be tripled in size or quadrupled. I think it would be a terrible thing if they abolished it.

Senator CURTIS. I realize I am taking opinion testimony, but you have been close to the scene, and we have had Reverend Fry as an individual who has advocated the abolition of the gang intelligence

unit.

Now, this work has given you some knowledge of how gangs operate, has it not?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Wherever a gang has its headquarters, regardless of the building, its respectability, or lack of it, based upon your experience as a prosecutor, is a gang headquarters a place where it is very likely that planning takes place for unlawful activities, where you find dope as well as firearms?

Mr. KARTON. From everything that the boys that I have talked to have told me, that is accurate.

Senator CURTIS. In the course of your official duties, you have not only worked on the law in the case and the form of presentation, but you have interviewed many boys who have been members of gangs. Mr. KARTON. And who are associated with gangs.

85-779-68-pt. 11-2

Senator CURTIS. Now, coming back to this reference to Mrs. Martin's testimony-the transcript, I believe, is page 4187, the temporary transcript, not the printed one, of course she tells how her children were given the message not to testify about the killing because their lives would be in danger. About what date was that?

Mr. KARTON. I would say that that would either have been in late September or early October 1967.

Senator CURTIS. In sequence of the trial, it was at the time that the indictment was being sought in the case of Eugene Hairston.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator CURTIS. So even though you were not present in the room, your report of what Mrs. Martin and Mr. Seltzer said, is a report of their reaction and words at the time the event took place or immediately thereafter; is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator CURTIS. And, of course, with no planned preparation for committee appearance; none of these things were foreseen. Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator CURTIS. Now, you used the expression that giving William Seltzer the benefit of the doubt, that he, by his own words, did convey to the boys the thought that adverse testimony against Eugene Hairston could lead to the death of the people who gave it; is that correct? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator CURTIS. So when it comes right down to it, the variation between Mrs. Martin's testimony and what Seltzer himself said to you is not on what was said but the manner and purpose for which it is said; is that right?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, I agree with that.

Senator CURTIS. I do not want to put words in your mouth.

Mr. KARTON. I can see that the Martin boys, as well as Mrs. Martin, would have taken what Mr. Seltzer said, assuming Mr. Seltzer intended no threat, intended to do his job as an attorney, objectively representing the best interests of his client, that what he said with the best of intentions might have been taken, and if I were a 13-year-old boy I would have taken it that way, as a threat.

Senator CURTIS. But the point is, it conveyed Mr. William Seltzer's belief concerning gang operation, and Eugene Hairston in particular; is that right?

Mr. KARTON. I would think so; yes.

Senator CURTIS. Even based on his own version.

Mr. KARTON. I would think so; yes.

Senator CURTIS. So people are worried, naturally, when they go into the courtroom, little boys are involved. If we give William Seltzer total benefit of the doubt, that he was warning about the seriousness to them, there remains no dispute so far as this record is concerned that the idea was conveyed to the boys that truthful testimony, if it was adverse to Hairston, might lead to their death.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. And he could have done that with no intention or desire whatsoever to be of assistance to Hairston but out of an honest desire to protect these youngsters from any guilt.

Mr. KARTON. Yes, Senator; I believe that is what did happen. I have known Mr. Seltzer for many years.

Senator MUNDT. Why do you suppose he didn't have the mother present there? Did he give any reason for that?

Mr. KARTON. He did not give any reasons to me. I would not at this time would not suppose to read his mind or conjecture.

Senator MUNDT. To me, as a nonlawyer, I should have thought that the mother should have been there. If you had been a lawyer in Mr. Seltzer's place, giving a warning for whatever reason, would you have wanted the mother there?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, if I were in Mr. Seltzer's position, I would not have talked to the boys directly about it at first anyway. I would have spoken to their mother first.

Senator CURTIS. Now, I have no desire to get into the sphere of approving or disapproving William Seltzer's act. He has his explanation for it. Mrs. Martin has her interpretation of it. But either version would have tended to discourage the boys from testifying and testifying truthfully, would it not?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. You have been informed about what Mrs. Martin said?

Mr. KARTON. I beg your pardon?

Senator CURTIS. You have been informed about what Mrs. Martin told the committee?

Mr. KARTON. I was present, sir.

Senator CURTIS. You were present.

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. William Seltzer's remark at the time and place raises no dispute as to the substance of the ideas that were conveyed to the boys' mind; is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator CURTIs. Now, a little bit of the information about the Legal Aid Society. Is it an official arm of the Government?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, I am not very familiar with the Legal Aid Society other than the fact that there are many legal aid organizations. There are some in the Woodlawn area. I dealt with one of the attorneys one time when he represented Mr. Bey after Mr. Bey was indicted.

Mr. Seltzer is from a different agency altogether, although they are both legal aid agencies. I think that the legal aid agency in Woodlawn is federally financed. I do not know whether or not the particular office out of which Mr. Seltzer works is federally financed or is governmentally financed at all.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know whether or not there is any setup in the public bar association, the Illinois or Cook County Bar Association, for passing on the qualifications of individuals who offer their services to the Legal Aid Society?

Mr. KARTON. I don't know whether there is or isn't, sir.

Senator CURTIS. That is all at this point.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you about some specific cases. You have given some testimony here that is really alarming in the sense of law enforcement and the problems you have out there.

Mr. KARTON. It is an alarming situation, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. KARTON. The situation is an alarming situation.

The CHAIRMAN. It is alarming because of what?

Mr. KARTON. Because of the scope of the activity in Woodlawn. The CHAIRMAN. Whose activity?

Mr. KARTON. Of the gangs in the area.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you talking about the Blackstone Rangers? Mr. KARTON. As one of the gangs; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It has a number of gangs that are subsidiary to it; does it not?

Mr. KARTON. Yes. It is my understanding when you talk about the Blackstone Rangers, you are talking about-I believe their corporate name is the Mighty Blackstone Ranger Nation, Inc., an Illinois corporation.

The CHAIRMAN. The Mighty Blackstone Rangers Nations, Inc.? Mr. KARTON. Right. From my understanding, this is a union composed of many subgangs, some of which were mentioned, I believe, by Commander Griffin yesterday.

The CHAIRMAN. But this is the boss organization.

Mr. KARTON. The Main 21 is the hierarchy of the whole structure. The CHAIRMAN. This is the group that had control of this money and operating this program.

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us take a case or two so that you can be specific on some of the problems you have.

What about a boy named Stephen Coffey, a member of the Disciples gang? Do you know him?

Mr. KARTON. I never met him alive, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You never met him alive. Do you know of him? Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened to him?

Mr. KARTON. In October 1967, he was shot and killed about a half block from the First Presbyterian Church.

The CHAIRMAN. About a half block. Now, he was a member of a rival gang?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. He was killed within a half block of the church?
Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Daytime or nighttime, do you recall?

Mr. KARTON. I believe it was late afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. Was someone arrested for that killing?

Mr. KARTON. Yes; a boy by the name of Earnest Rollins.

The CHAIRMAN. How old was Earnest?

Mr. KARTON. He was, I believe, 16.

The CHAIRMAN. How old?

Mr. KARTON. Sixteen.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he a member of a gang?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir; he was a member of the Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. Member of the Blackstone Rangers?

Mr. KARTON. That is, a member of the total nation. I don't know

exactly which splinter group he was a member of.

The CHAIRMAN. He came under the jurisdiction of this Main 21.
Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no doubt about that?
Mr. KARTON. That is correct.